James Pittman: Welcome to Immigration Uncovered, the Docketwise Video podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of immigration law, shedding light on the latest developments, cutting edge practice management strategies, and the transformative impact of legal technology to empower immigration practitioners with invaluable insights and explore the intricate intersection of law and society. Today drafty. AI. I have my guests Nadine Navarro and Antoine Vasquez, founders of Drafty AI, a new legal tech startup. Welcome, both of you.

Nadine Navarro: Thank you.

James Pittman: Thank you for having us. Let's start by hearing about your background and the founding of the company and what you aim to accomplish. So let's go to Antoine and just tell me a little bit about your professional journey. So, yeah, my background is in engineering, multidisciplinary engineering. My academic background is in bioengineering or biomedical engineering, which is a very broad engineering career where they cover anything from mechanical engineering to the human body to process engineering, and also as well as software engineering, hardware, electrical. Very broad, very intense. And then for the past five years or so, I've been in the software space, in the consulting space, where I actually run and own a company where we help. For the past five years, we've helped corporations in the financial tech industry, biotechnology industry, and many other industries with their cloud infrastructure, data engineering, analytics, anything related to the cloud from security, networking, deployment processes, all that stuff. That's what I've been doing for the past five years prior to joining Draftee. And nadine yourself.

James Pittman: So your background is as an immigration attorney. How did you tell us a little bit about it, and how did you get to this point?

Nadine Navarro: Yeah, so I am an immigrant myself. I'm born and raised in Cuba. My parents immigrated to the US. 2002. We won the visa lottery, so it's not lost to me. It's incredible opportunity that I've had to come to this country, this free country, and get into immigration by myself. My first immigration walk piece actually was while I was in law school. I married my boyfriend who was on an F One visa, and I did the petition for marriage green card for him, and from that I went straight into immigration law. After I graduated, I graduated from FSU law, and the rest is history. I started Drafty AI with Antoine, who's a longtime friend of mine and an incredibly talented engineer earlier this year with the hope that I can expand my reach not just to immigrants, but other immigration lawyers and sort of improve the field in that way as well.

James Pittman: Yeah, Nathan, it really resonates with me. It's quite similar to my own journey. So you two knew each other beforehand, and then you got to a point where you said, hey, you have the technical talent, I have the immigration law expertise. Let's create a startup.

James Pittman: So tell me about Drafty AI, the scope of the product, how far along is it? What's your vision for the company? By many standards, we're pretty far along for a startup in the legal tech industry. From the feedback that I got from the Ila conference, I heard from other co founders in the space that it took them years, on average two years to launch the first product and being able to accomplish that in just a few months. And I think the reasoning for that is, because of our team's experience, we've been working with enterprise level products for many years. So that accelerated the process. We weren't reinventing the wheel per se. Right now, on the value side of the product, I'll say we're still very early stage, though, in contrast to the robustness of the product as a technology product is very robust, but the value of the product, we're very early stage because we're being very careful on how we release. For example, our main thing is we're helping attorneys draft legal documents, and we started with allowing them to draft asylum documents. And we recently released 601 A waivers, and our asylum product is in beta, and we released the 601 A waivers in a preview phase and a preview version. We're not even charging customers for those documents because we're leveraging as much feedback as we can and dealing with the moving target of the AI revolution. That every few weeks, there's a new development, the technology changes, and we have to iterate and we have to do it in a way where we are conscientious and aware of all the stakeholders, the clients, our clients who are the attorneys, their clients and all the ethical considerations and everything. So I will say in that aspect, we're moving slow. But in the future, we aim to cover all the document types that an immigration attorney could possibly draft, and we would love to help with the drafting process for all those documents.

Nadine Navarro: For the journey of draftee. It all started when Antoine came to me with the idea. He saw how me running a solo practice, I run a boutique style, more niche practice where I practice predominantly talent based petitions, which are very writing heavy. He saw how much time I was spending in that, and he sort of did his own demo of how Chad GPT works, how VCs they can work to create an Ed one brief or an E two brief, et cetera. And I saw it, and I was blown away. I thought there was huge value in it. I recognized the value right away, and that's when we partnered up and started building the product. In.

James Pittman: Did your the insights that you gained from founding Navarro? Let's get the name of your firm is Navarro Immigration, LLC. First of all, are you still running your practice, and how did the insights that you gained from your practice shape how you're working to create the product?

Nadine Navarro: I am very much still running my practice. I intend to continue running my practice for the time being. In the future, I might transition fully to just working for Draftee. But for now, I still remain practicing law and Navarro immigration law. My background in founding my law practice and being a practicing attorney impacted Dundrafti development tremendously. I personally, as an immigrant who I've been through the process twice myself. First, the visa process and the Cuban adjustment process when my parents and I came here, and then later with my spouse. I have a very personalized, customized, compassionate way of running my practice, which means that I spend a lot of time on one to one calls, dedicating that personal time to my clients. So when the idea of AI and a product like Drafty came around, I saw how much it could benefit a firm like mine in not outsourcing so much, but automating the repetitive, routine task like drafting that attorneys has to do and freeing up my time to continue serving my clients in a more individualized, personal way like I prefer. So in that way, I have taken my experience in practicing law and in running my firm and applied that to Drafty. Because we also run Draftee in a very personalized way. We encourage our users to email us, call us, give us feedback in person, and we're always so grateful for any critical comments, feedback of any kind or request because we hope to implement as much of that as possible and continue building a tool that helps attorneys like myself and just immigration attorneys across the board.

James Pittman: Well, let's talk about let's get into the product a little bit. I mean, what are the specific pain points? What are the specific problems or inefficiencies that you set out to solve with Draft AI, and how does it do that at a practical level?

Nadine Navarro: So I think all immigration lawyers are familiar with the fact that we are one of the lowest paying bars out there, right? Our clients all want it done fast. They want it done cheap. That's the eternal struggle, right? And as attorneys, we have to find ways to make that work as much as possible with products like AI. That vision is a lot easier. With Drafty AI, we like to think, or based on our experience, we can save attorneys at least half the time that they would spend drafting an asylum brief, for example, or a waiver brief. And they can either repurpose that time to working on the case, more client communication, more case analysis, those other more nuanced judgment calls and parts of being an attorney, or even repurpose that time to service more clients and grow your firm. So in that way, I see Drafty revolutionizing the practice of law.

James Pittman: Now, at a practical level, where are the data inputs coming from? The client data that you're going to be using to kind of draft your brief? Where is that coming from? How is the AI working? I mean, what's it powered by? And does it have access to the body of immigration statutes, regulations, case law and how does it put the inputs together with the legal resources and the templates. So right now, we've implemented a client management dashboard where the attorney has two choices. When they get to the point where they wanting to use our tool, the initial step is to input the client's information, and they can choose to do themselves or allow another colleague to input the client information, which is very minimized the amount of information that we ask. We only ask for the pieces of information that we know are needed. So that sort of optimizes. It creates some more time efficiencies there. Or they can choose to send a link to the client where the client can answer questions on their own time, and then those answers will populate into the tool. Are you able to integrate with any other products at this time so that data can flow in from another platform? Definitely. So we've created the product in a way that we can integrate through APIs with other products. And we would love to partner with companies like Dockerwise. So that way the existing body of attorneys that are out there that have existing client data in this platform can leverage those profiles to bring it into draftee. And that's something we're very much looking forward to and hope we can make that happen. But on our end, from the technical perspective, we're pretty much ready to make that move. It's just a matter of establishing the strategic partnerships with existing tech companies in the space. And then from there on, the attorney would answer a questionnaire, curated and optimized again to minimize time and sort of guide the process of building a good brief. And once they answer that questionnaire with the facts of the case and things of that nature and the angle, sort of an idea on the angle where they want to take the case, they hit submit request draft, and within five to 1015 minutes, they'll get a full draft downloaded to their computer. That can be anywhere from five to 20 pages. Now, are the templates that you've created that is being mapped into, or do users create their own templates as well?

Nadine Navarro: I'll expand on it a little bit so that it makes more sense from a legal like the lawyer perspective versus the technical perspective. When you go into our database, there's a case management tool, right? And this is the part of it that we hope to integrate with Docket Wix, for example, we would love if you guys could work with us to get an API where your clients have migrated. Some of that we're not in the case management business. But from there you would click any of the cases that you have in there and generate a draft. So you would click on one of the buttons generate Asylum, Brief, generate I 601 A, whatever. We have multiple tools. There will be many more in the future. When you click Generate, the intake that we've worked very carefully to create will pop up. This is the intake that I, from the legal perspective, have been working with the engineers to build. So for an asylum case, it will ask you the basic questions should be auto populated from the case management, like the client name, date of birth, et cetera. So the questions on this intake would be, when did the persecution start? What happened? Give us a short summary of different dates that something happened to you. Who is persecuting you? Have you reported this to the police? Write all of the nuanced questions related to the asylum case so that we get all the client information and the meat of the case. From that, you click Generate draft, and the tool will feed all this information into a prompt, a very long, detailed prompt that our engineers have worked to create so that it feeds to the GPT Four platform, and it will then return the brief. It will be formatted. It's a Word document formatted for what jurisdiction you selected. That's one of our intake questions. Where are you submitting this brief? USCIS or whatever court or the Bia. And from that you get a formatted brief, and it will expand on what you provided. It will look up the cultural additions, look up applicable law based on what the client is describing, and it will give you a fully functioning legal document.

James Pittman: Do you consider yourself still in beta? Yes. Okay. And is it a monthly subscription model, or is it a power case? How does the pricing work? We have some introductory prices right now. That's something we're exploring as well. They're listed on our website, so anyone can look at our pricing structure. And it's monthly. You can choose to pay yearly to save some money. And then there's an automated that's fully self served, so any attorney can go in, sign up for the product, choose a pricing model, and we're charging per documents that can be generated. So our starting plan starts at five premium documents. So we have the distinction of premium documents, which examples are the asylum briefs and the I 601 A waivers. And then we have basic documents. For example, naturalization cover letters. Those were not counting as a document that you use because it's a very simple thing. It's a very simple document, and you can create as many of those as you want. And we plan to add many more basic documents and many more premium documents.

James Pittman: Do you foresee yourselves adding sort of in office business documents for the law firm, like engagement letters or attorney client agreements, that type of document as well, cover letters or correspondence or focusing first on brief types?

Nadine Navarro: We were first focusing on brief types that offer the most value based on feedback that we received at the National Alo Conference. A lot of people at the time when we unveiled the product, we only had the Phylon brief as our first beta release. And a lot of people asked for the 601 A waivers, which is why we released that next. And then we're working off of feedback here. A lot of attorneys have asked for specific documents. We have limited time and resources, right? Everyone does. So we're working based on that. But in the future, we do envision offering not only every type of document briefs, cover, letters, et cetera, that an attorney might need to submit to USCIS or court, but also even those internal documents, as well as they based on survey, are seen as useful to our clients. We'd be happy to integrate those as well in the future.

James Pittman: You mentioned templates, so within our premium documents, there's no templates at all. Even briefer summary of how the tool works is we take information from the client and the attorney, or solely from the attorney. We feed that once they hit submit a request draft. We feed that through our software engineering layer and our prompt engineering layer, which there are actually not just one prompt, there's many, many prompts. And it's been curated for months and months and it continues to iterate the way we prompt the AI and we build it in a way such that the AI model takes a fresh look at the case every single time. So there's no template. It's as if an attorney was looking at the case for the very first time and is performing a case analysis for you and then acts on it and drafts the document based on that case analysis. Understood. And you said it's powered by Open AI's Chat GPT and we're up to the latest Chat GPT four model, and we'll continue to keep up with the models as well. And in the future, we're also testing including other models to supplement this one. So most likely the way this will work is there will be multiple models working in tandem based on what they're good at and then ultimately our own model that we're also working on. So how does draft the AI, what steps are taken to ensure the accuracy of the legal documents that it generates? Because we know whenever you're using natural language AI model like Chat GPT, you have to really be careful because there are still a lot of issues with hallucinations or made up cases or other inaccuracies that of course an attorney needs to really very carefully check everything before you would submit any document. So what steps are taken to check the accuracy? To start, it's worth making the distinction that going to shadgpt on the web browser if you should sign up for OpenAI and you start using it there is very different from using a tool like Draft AI. So when you use it on the web browser, they do train on the data that you provided. So they do leverage that data that's a little bit irrelevant to the accuracy. But also the model has a lot of creative freedom. So there's this notion of temperature within OpenAI's language models and temperature is the amount of creative freedom that is given to the model to process what you're asking and come up with an answer. So on the web browser, it's very creative. On our tool, we're using their APIs application programming interface. So we're talking to chat UPT programmatically and we get to set that temperature parameter to zero. So essentially it has zero creativity to make things up. Obviously, it's an evolving technology. All other AI startups are struggling with this, as you mentioned. So we still have to be very careful and our end users have to be very careful and read things before they go with it, before they run with it. But also besides that, over the past several months we've been testing and iterating and hearing feedback from attorneys that are using this. And we've putting guardrails into our prompt engineering layer and modify the prompts and continue to iterate it in a way that we guide the model into producing the most accurate, reliable and consistent outputs as possible. Understood.

James Pittman: Well, you're new, but do you have any success stories or notable case studies from the feedback that you've received from your current users where drafty AI has significantly improved efficiency for immigration attorneys?

Nadine Navarro: We've had very limited time, even in beta stage since we released the first asylums and the waivers were just released, what, I think a couple of weeks ago maybe. And those are in preview mode, but I have percepted at conferences and I'm in touch with a lot of a lot people I'm involved. So I have heard that via just personal conversations with people who have approached me, they're using our tool and they have produced an asylum brief and they've told me it saved them significant time, right, something that would take them all day was taking them now a couple of hours because they could fill in this intake. Still very careful what to fill in, right? Still putting in the full scope of the client story, the intake that they got from their client, getting the document already formatted, already kind of ready to go, and all they have to do is read through it as if your paralegal or whoever you use to write it and let's say if you were to outsource it, it's presenting it to you. So now it's moving more to a review versus starting from scratch because even attorneys that use a lot of attorneys, we have our briefs that we use and we repurpose. But even then, for an asylum brief, for example, or a waiver, you have the statement of fact section that takes a long time to put together because we have to comb through all the intake from the client, make it sound good, organize it into, all of that is done for you. So from that perspective, I've had a few of our colleagues approach me and let me know that they've used it and they found tremendous use in it. Saved multiple hours that they would have been spent writing this. So we've seen a lot of positive feedback. We are heading into doing a survey round in the coming month, so we'll know more then. And we're planning to ask more specific questions about what percentage of time you see the saving you specifics about the hours, et cetera. So we will have more feedback?

James Pittman: Yes. And from a more data oriented approach, I could tell you somewhere around 20% of our users have had a trial and they made the decision to pay for the full year. So that tells me they saw value, enough value in the product to know that they're going to use it at least for the next year. So I think that was a good validation for us. And are you offering free trials for those who want to get a taste of it before committing to a subscription? Definitely. Right now, anyone can go to our website, sign up. It does require you to add a credit card, but you won't be charged for the first 30 days. And if you don't want it, you can self serve cancel. There's an option that you can just terminate the trial.

James Pittman: And what's your go to market strategy like? Nadine, you mentioned you've been around to conferences. Which conferences have you been to? How are you planning to promote the product?

Nadine Navarro: We first unveiled our product at the Aila National Conference in Orlando this year. That was at the end of June, I believe. And that was kind of our first taste on the market. We used that more as an opportunity to showcase our product more than sales because it was brand new. We had just released our first tool, which was the Asylum brief, and it was still in testing mode. But we wanted to get user feedback. We wanted to get our name out there. There were quite a few other AI tech companies out there too. We were the first to have actually run a functioning AI product already to use. So after that, I spoke recently at the Ala Central Florida conference last month on the AI panel with Greg Siskin and, and, you know, just continuing to attend conferences present, bring the information to the attorneys. A lot of attorneys are apprehensive about AI, so we plan to use social media as well to publish information that is useful and helps dispel some of the myths about AI and just continue to speak to quality.

James Pittman: Yeah, let's talk about that. Let's talk about some of the reception that you've got. What's some of the apprehension about what kind of misconceptions have you come up against and what have your responses been?

Nadine Navarro: So one of the main apprehensions that I see is that attorneys think AI is going to be replacing them. Right. And this is something that I think it's part of the AI fears. Right. And I like to remind attorneys that AI is not new. AI has been around for years. If you use Siri Alexa, self driving cars, roomba robots, and the list goes on, you've been using AI for a long, long time. So this new wave of AI technology that is sort of invading the legal field that came after Chat GPT was released, like last year, is just sort of a continuation of this technology that we've seen expanding through the years. I don't think AI is going to be regreasing lawyers. There's a lot of nuanced, judgments, empathy, case analysis, different things that lawyers do that it's just AI is not good at that, and it's not meant for that. So I don't see Edward Macy's attorneys ever. Another apprehension that I've seen is attorneys worry that having AI is going to mean they offer less personalized legal services. Right? Oh, it's just going to be robotic. It's not the same. And I just think that's kind of a really old school way of looking at it. A long time ago, everybody thought computers were scary and email was scary, and back in the day, attorneys would write actual letters, and a lot of attorneys didn't want to adopt email. Back when computers were made, we had a lot of similar pushback. So it's similar. I do think that AI is going to be the future. I think it's going to take over not only in the legal industry, but everywhere, because any technology that has this much potential to improve efficiencies and make repetitive tasks this easy, it's going to take over. And I think this is a good thing. Just like email was an amazing thing to help with communication and improve our processes and ability to reach more people, AI and tools like Drafty AI have the same positive influence.

James Pittman: Well, let me ask you this question. Let me be a little provocative. How do you feel about AI on the adjudication side? Clearly, there can be efficiencies to be gained on the government side. Do you think there will be a role for tools, AI powered tools in the government to do some of the adjudicatory work? And how do you feel about we.

Nadine Navarro: Actually, Anton and I were discussing this just the other day, and I was running this by one of our colleagues, and I think that it would be phenomenal if USCIS would adopt AI. I think it would cut processing times. Imagine a world where the package goes to USCIS, and there's an AI that can automatically in minute, check whether the birth certificate, marriage certificate, medical, and every document required for a marriage petition is there. And check the form that everything is answered. The format is right, the language is right there's. Translations included, all the basic things that would cut the amount of work of the officer significantly. And I think we would see much better adjudication times across the board, which would have an even bigger impact than anything that we could do with working with our colleagues. I think that if it's adopted on the adjudication side, at least with USCIS, which is more transnational and it deals with more paperwork, versus a judge or a court, which is definitely more nuanced, I think that it would be great and maybe that's maybe other people might not agree with me, but I think it would benefit the field at large, and it would benefit a lot of our clients that have to wait years sometimes to hear back on the case.

James Pittman: One of the advantages that I thought of was not only in the Efficiencies, but also in elimination of biases and more consistent and standardized adjudication, less variability and unpredictability in adjudication, it can be trained to show biases or it can be trained to eliminate biases. Let's say it's trained to eliminate biases and be as neutral as possible. You would get much less of the kind of quirky adjudication syndrome that you get when you have maybe a particular officer who does something very unexpected or maybe unreasonable with a case. The AI, I think, could be much more predictable in adjudications, and I think that's potentially one of the big advantages.

James Pittman: What do you do with the fact that the Chat GPT, its latest data is from, what is it, 2022 or 2021? I mean, they're always a year or two behind on the data that they have access to. So how do we ensure that the results that you're getting are up to date? About a week ago, actually, OpenAI released a new model that it's up to date on up to April 2023. The good thing is that they're working very hard at catching it up. And Sam, the CEO, promised that he's never going to let the model get that far behind. Going to every new release is going to get even closer to up to date. And even the CEO from Microsoft jumped into the keynote and supported his claims. And he stated that Microsoft is also working really hard to support OpenAI into making this tool as robust and as up to date as possible. On their end, they're working on the data center, creating the data centers and allowing them as much compute power as they need to make this incredible technology possible. And on our end, like I said before, we're testing including other models into working in tandem with Chat GBT because there are other models that have newer information available or they're more flexible as to what you can feed it. And we're also working on compiling our own database of case law. That way we can at least those newer case laws and we can feed them on as they come out. So that way, hopefully within a few months or so, you're going to see this changing tremendously. Right now, we've heard from attorneys that even if the case law is not super up to date, those are minor changes that they can go. In and update, update the language, maybe update the case law, but still the tool is tremendous help because then the bulk of the work is done and you just sort of have to change the angle that is in a way that's compliant with the newest case law.

James Pittman: Let's talk about that in a little bit more depth. If you're taking an asylum case at first glance, I mean, the standards for gaining asylum and the statutory sections and everything that you have to satisfy that's very easy to access. But suppose you were writing an appeal brief, let's say especially well, either for an asylum or let's say for another type of case, like an employment based case. You'll have a body of appellate decisions from the AAO, from the know. Those are not always, I mean, you have to go to specific websites to access those decisions. I mean, how will you go about as you develop your product, making that body of law available for the AI to access? From what I've been learning, it's all about building strategic partnerships with the companies that have access to the data or strictly brute force. Like not brute force, but just putting a lot of work into connecting a bunch of data sources or building automations to continuously bring in the data from many data sources. That's one of the reasons why we haven't released those type of reefs, because those capabilities are not there yet, but they will very soon be available to us because we're working as hard as we can to make them happen. Understanding that accuracy and up to date information is vital to this type of documents.

James Pittman: Let's talk about data security. It's very important for everyone, it's especially important for attorneys because of the requirements of legal ethics. Give me your sort of take on how you are ensuring the security and confidentiality of all your data in a general sense and then specifically with regard know the AI portion of it with the Chat GPT. A great thing that I'm really grateful for is our team has a ton of experience with enterprise level applications and our CTO has even background, has even worked with the Department of Defense over the years. Our team has worked with many biotechnology companies that need to meet HIPAA standards. We've worked with technology companies that has needed to handle payment information so they have PCI, they need to be PCI compliant and then also SoC two compliant. And we have all this experience within our team and we've implemented all the essentially the security that goes into meeting all this compliance certificates into the tool from the get go. So we're not like most startups. If you think in a traditional sense startups, you build your minimum viable product and then you iterate. We knew the importance and Adine was very adamant know, let us know the importance of security and we understood it right away because we relate to it from our past work and the demands of our past clients. So we made sure that even if the progress is a little slower, that the security is there from the start. And we use the cloud providers and tools that we use also meet the highest standards of security. Great to hear. It's very important.

James Pittman: Nadine, now, your current users, are they mostly attorneys in private practice? Have you made any inroads into, let's say, the nonprofit sector? Because as you were talking, I was just thinking about the impact on access to justice. I mean, some of the nonprofits that really do a lot of the asylum work, a lot of the humanitarian type of immigration cases, UVs, TVs, et cetera, that work is labor intensive, and they are limited in their capacity to help people because of how much work each case takes. So I was just thinking that a tool like yours is very powerful in their hands and can really enable access to justice for a larger number of people if it becomes widely adopted. Tell me about it.

Nadine Navarro: So I completely agree, and it's a big part of our mission with drafty AI to kind of bridge that gap between a legal service to the underserved communities. And we have spoken to quite a few nonprofits, especially at the Aila National Conference, and we have had a few of the nonprofit attorneys sign up for trials. Now, the process with them is a little bit more extensive because they have to go through all the checks, the bureau product checks that go through their boss, see if they want to sign up for the product and whatnot, but are offering nonprofit discounts. We are hoping to be able to make this very accessible. Aside from our mission to revolutionize the legal field and make small firms competitive and firms in general become more efficient, we also a huge part of our field is to make legal services more accessible to the underserved communities. So with that, we're willing to work with nonprofits. We're willing to create plans that serve them, individualized plans. That's why on our website for nonprofits, we say that they should contact us and we're willing to work with whatever budget they have to offering the service to them if they see use and something that they can implement. And we're more than happy to provide the service for a portion of the fee.

James Pittman: And are they able to get a demonstration to see how it works?

Nadine Navarro: They are, yeah, absolutely. We have demos. We offer demos to everyone that wants to use the product. And we also are able to offer the free trial so that they can check that out for themselves and see the tool and process in their own time.

James Pittman: So, Nadine and Antoine, what excites you most about the future of drafting AI and its potential impact on the legal profession, specifically immigration? And do you think in the future you might expand beyond immigration? I mean, you're very new. But has that thought even crossed your mind yet?

Nadine Navarro: Absolutely. I think that any company, you have to start small, but you have big dreams and big visions for the future. Right? And we certainly see this technology expanding past immigration. Immigration is my area of expertise, so we started with that. I see the most need there as well, just because the immigration field has a big gap to fill between our services are not very expensive in comparison to other legal professions, so there's a bigger gap there to fill in terms of saving attorneys time and money in the practice. I'm very excited about the prospect of draft EAI helping nonprofits and also just the social impact that it will have, hopefully on the underserved community. Because we hope that in the future, attorneys will see tools like drafty AI and other AI tools that make the practice easier, that saves them time and resources, and perhaps accept more pro bono cases, do some more community service that we might not be able to do now because of how overworked we are. So in freeing up attorneys'time, in a way, we hope that they will give back to the community as well.

James Pittman: Like Nadine said, there's a lot of pressure on our team and one key component is we're fully self funded so far and soon we will be looking to raise funds. So once we raise our first round of funds, the landscape will change dramatically and we'll be able to implement all the ideas and have a broader reach and expand within the immigration field much, much quicker. And hopefully bring in, or very likely bring in talent legal attorneys. Essentially bring in consuls from other areas of law so that we can start penetrating those markets as well. Great to hear.

James Pittman: Well, what should users and people who are interested in what you're doing look forward to in 2024? I mean, what would you hope to accomplish by the end of next year?

Nadine Navarro: I have very high hopes that we will release employment based petitions soon. That is my area of expertise, so I'm obviously pushing for that. We had a lot of feedback in that regard at the conference as well, the National Conference in June and be able to offer the full scope of those employment based petitions as well as investor e, two old peas, those talent based petitions as well. And just in general, we ask that our users email us, users or even non users who maybe want something that we're not currently offering to get in touch with us. We are looking to build for the consumers. We want to hear what people want to see. We want to hear your feedback, critical or otherwise, and we want to work on implementing based on that. So we hope to continue building as quick as we have up until this point and by 2024 have the full scope of every type of immigration case up on the platform. Where you could draft a petition or draft a brief or cover page for any kind of case.

James Pittman: Antoine, your thoughts for 2024? Yeah. Same at the uni. Did a great job explaining our immediate goals. It's not going to be an easy task to come up with all those document types, but that's our minimum goal. And then from a more technical perspective, within a few months, hopefully very early 2024, the tool will have access to the most up to date case law country conditions, basically, hopefully on a day to day basis so that things are updated daily. I think that's one of our most immediate goals. Great to hear.

James Pittman: Well, we're certainly in the middle of a revolution, and I personally think that the legal industry, legal services, are going to be one of the most impacted industries by the natural language AI model, simply owing to the nature of the work. That the amount of writing that needs to be done, researching of information and writing, which is something that the AI does so remarkably and so powerfully. I really think it has the potential, as we've said, to not only save practicing attorneys tons of time and increase their efficiency, but really allow greater access to justice and allow a lot of legal work to get done that's currently just not getting done because of the constraints of how the work has been done up to this point. So it's a revolution. You guys are in the vanguard, and it is amazing to hear from you. So I thank both of my guests, nadine Navarro and Antoine Vasquez, co founders of Draftyai. The website is draftyai.com. And guys, we're looking forward to having you back in the future and seeing how the products evolved. Any other thoughts for the moment before we close?

Nadine Navarro: Thank you so much for having us. And like I said, I would hope that you'll be interested in speaking to us about the Dr. Weiss API and those potential partnerships there.

James Pittman: James, like you said, it's a revolution. It's something that us as the human race as a whole, we're dealing with. And there's a concept of exponential improvement, and us humans have a very hard time grasping exponential anything. So we're all learning in this. And at Draft AI, we're doing our best to stay, like you said, at the vanguard and digest all this information and as it comes in and make it available in the safest way to the immigration attorneys community. And the technology is very powerful. You mentioned the concept of bias, and I would expand on that, not only from the adjudication side, even on the attorney side. US humans tend to be very rigid in the way we view things and we do things, and it's sometimes very hard to change our mindset. And attorneys can leverage those like ours to expand their perspective because they can let the AI view the cases from angles that possibly wouldn't have thought of, and that in itself is very powerful. So, yeah, we look forward to hearing from our customers and anyone that would love to give us feedback so that we can make this tool the best possible for the community. And thank you so much for having us. You're quite welcome. And thank you both. And with that, we'll close. And please join us again for our next episode of Immigration Uncovered.

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