immigration uncovered podcast

Featuring

James Pittman

James Pittman

Docketwise

Andre Bothma

Andre Bothma

Founder at D7Visa.com

EPISODE:
047

Golden Visas: Your Ticket to European Residency with Andre Bothma

In this enlightening episode of Immigration Uncover, host James Pittman delves into the world of European Golden Visa programs with expert Andre Bothma, founder of d7visa.com. This comprehensive discussion explores various residency and citizenship by investment options across Europe, providing valuable insights for those seeking a second home or backup plan.

Key topics covered:

  • Overview of Golden Visa programs and their appeal
  • Portugal's Golden Visa and new Startup Co-Investor Visa
  • Spain's changing landscape and phasing out of their Golden Visa
  • Greece's tightened rules and increased investment thresholds
  • Malta's Golden Visa and citizenship by investment options
  • Cyprus's program developments and potential Schengen access
  • Austria's exclusive citizenship by investment program
  • Digital nomad visas across Europe
  • Tax considerations for Golden Visa applicants

Andre Bothma shares his expertise on each country's program, discussing recent changes, investment requirements, and potential benefits. The conversation also touches on the impact of political developments, housing crises, and the growing trend of digital nomadism on these programs.

Notable insights include the potential resurgence of investment migration programs following legal battles with the EU, the importance of seeking professional tax advice, and the prediction that current conditions may be the best opportunity for obtaining a "Plan B" in the foreseeable future.

This episode provides essential information for immigration lawyers advising clients on European residency and citizenship options, as well as individuals considering such programs for themselves.

We encourage viewers to like this video, subscribe to our channel for more in-depth immigration discussions, and share your thoughts or questions in the comments section below.

Episode Transcript

James Pittman: Welcome to Immigration Uncover, the docketwise video podcast. I'm James Pittman, cofounder of docketwise, your host. And today, we're gonna be talking about golden visa programs across Europe, and I'm being joined by Andre Bothma, who is the founder of d7visa.com, an immigration consultancy firm, and he splits his time between, Portugal Porto Portugal Andre Cape Town, South Africa. Andre, welcome to the program.

Andre Bothma: Thanks for having me.

James Pittman: So, Andre, can you just, by way of introduction, just interest introduce us to you and sort of how you got into this area?

Andre Bothma: James, my involvement in investment migration goes back to around 2017. I had previously done a lot of work in affiliate marketing and general online marketing Andre, was actually looking at an opportunity to move to Europe myself. And at the time, the only options that were really being promoted around here were golden visa ones. So I then went and, did some investigations into getting a Golden Visa for myself at the time Andre then realized that this would be a good, commercial opportunity to exploit. So I then started working with, with with Golden Visa Supplies. Weirdly enough, actually, doing, Hungarian residency by by company formation. So that was my entry into the James. And then I have, in subsequent years, worked very closely with a number of suppliers, in country suppliers across both the citizenship and residency by investment programs. And then just prior to COVID, actually had stumbled on the d seven retirement visa as a product, and I realized that the the total accessible market for a product like that would be substantially bigger seeing as you don't have to invest to get it. So that was the genesis for the d seven visa, product idea, and, I mean, it's it's the rest kind of is history.

James Pittman: It's really a fascinating area, and it's one that's getting so much attention from people around the world who wanna acquire a second residency. It's it's becoming something that's being discussed more and more by Americans, as well as, you know, people from other parts of the world. So let's dive in and talk about some of these, programs. So can you, first provide a brief overview of, you know, what golden visa programs actually are, and what's their appeal to investors?

Andre Bothma: Certainly. Golden visas differ from many other conventional routes to residency in that you are not obligated to go and live in the country once you get your residency permit. For just about every other type of residency outside of the investment, space, the expectation would be that you go and settle in the country full time or very close to full time. And that necessarily has implications for the hub, you know, whether you fall into their tax net or or, you know, whatever the case may be. So whereas a simple way to phrase it is that on a golden visa, you have the option to go and live in a country full time, but not the obligation to do so. So it's kind of a cool option for, another place to call home in the event that, you know, social, economic, or political situations were to deteriorate back home.

James Pittman: Yes. It's it's always good to have a plan b or an insurance policy as it were.

Andre Bothma: Indeed. Yeah. So the d sevens would basically be a plan a kind of play, whereas the golden visas would be a plan b.

James Pittman: So now is that a generic term, or that's specific to a particular country?

Andre Bothma: The d naming convention is specific to well, I mean, d 7 Andre d 8 would be specific to Portugal. The one being the retirement, visa Andre the other one being the digital nomad visa. Technically, when you apply for the settlement visa, it's a d category visa, hence the name. So it's a settlement visa. But the if if you were to deal with your local consulate, they would probably advise you just to state that you're seeking temporary residency. They may not necessarily call it a d 7 or a d 8 on the application form, But the categorization for that, has various grounds upon which they will allocate your residency Pittman. And the d 7, in inverted commerce, routes would be for people with passive income, typically retirees. On the d eight, it's typically active income, and that could be then for people with foreign sourced, salaried income, you know, that is, you know, either on a contract basis or on a on a a freelance contract basis.

James Pittman: Basis. Okay. Very interesting. Let's let's talk about some specific programs. Let's start with Portugal, which is where you you spend a lot of your time.

James Pittman: So with with Portugal's golden visa being, one of a few remaining in Europe, what are what factors do you think contribute to the to its resilience? Why has it persisted, amidst what we see Andre growing pressures around the EU to kind of curtail such programs?

Andre Bothma: I think that the the the obvious, draw card in Portugal is the fact that you can become eligible to apply for citizenship after 5 years only having spent an average of 1 week per year on the ground. Now a key, benefit of a golden visa residency, and I mean that goes for most European golden visa residency programs, is that you don't really need to spend any time on the ground. In Portugal, it's the minimum is a week, but in Italy or in Greece or in Spain even, it's 0 days per year. But that, that presupposes that you only want to keep on renewing your temporary residency permit indefinitely. In all of those countries, if you want to actually naturalize to become a citizen, you need to spend more than 6 months per year on the ground Andre often more time, to be eligible to get the passport. So whereas in Portugal, you could literally do 1 to 2 weeks per year on average. And as long as you, are able to speak basic Portuguese, you'll be eligible to apply for first permanent residency and then a passport. So, for for applicants not only looking for a a backup call option, but also for a route to an actual citizenship and a passport, Portugal is the obvious choice.

James Pittman: So can you elaborate now on, a new visa, which is Portugal's startup co investor visa? This came into existence in 2024. And how is that sort of an alternative to the traditional golden visa?

Andre Bothma: The startup co investor visa is effectively a packaged version of the up I have my, startup start up visa. So it's kind of the done for you option. I've got a couple of notes on that if I may. But, effectively, it's a matchmaker service, that connects, foreign capital and know how with eligible start ups, high potential start ups in Portugal. So on the basis of making an investment and or taking the capital of a start up, you then effectively become a cofounder of that start up, which serves as the rationale and the basis for getting the residency permit.

James Pittman: What what's the amount of capital they're asking?

Andre Bothma: It's typically a 150,000 €150,000, depending on the nature of the start up and its capital requirements.

James Pittman: So not astronomical. Definitely doable for

Andre Bothma: the group. I mean, it's also a a component of that 150,000 goes towards actual just program participation fees. The the the actual capitalization into the start up is lower.

James Pittman: And what has the reception been so far since it's new? How what can you tell?

Andre Bothma: It's been very positive. And, I mean, we've had a a fair tsunami of inquiries considering it's a new program. It was developed by a firm based in Porto, which is where I'm based, called Visa D'oro Golden Visas. So they're quite actively involved in the cultural Golden Visa program as well, but this is one of their in house developed, programs leveraging the IAP, a startup visa channel.

James Pittman: And let's talk about what what sort of the the rights are that are granted once you have a coinvestor visa. I mean, is it does it have to be renewed? Is it permanent? Are you getting residency?

Andre Bothma: Yeah. So the the the residency pro permits in Portugal have now been sort of normalized in that you'll first get it for 2 years, and then it's renewable in 3 year increments thereafter. Unless after 5 years, you choose to apply for permanent residency, at which point you then that'll take another year or a year and a half depending on how the processing backlog is dealt with. I mean, we can talk about that in a in a bit. But, it it gives you the same route to, to to citizenship permanent residency, citizenship, and a passport as the d 7, for example. And it also has the, I mean, on on paper, it has the requirement for you to spend, you know, more than 6 months on the ground. But, typically, the startup cofounder's role would be to market their startup internationally. So on that basis, you can apply for a exception to the minimum stay requirements when you apply for the for the residency permits. So, again, you start with a d type settlement visa, which is good for 2 entries in 4 months. You'll use that visa to unless, of course, you're from the states where you already have visa free access, then you can basically come to Portugal directly and do your biometrics appointment, after which they then issue with the residency card. This particular kind of, residency application is is what they call priority. It's a priority residency. So the advantage of this is that it gets processed substantially faster than the golden visa, residency permits. Again, we can talk about that in a bit, but the the waiting period on the golden visa has been between 2 4 years.

James Pittman: Oh, wow.

Andre Bothma: Just to I mean, I'm in the in the peculiar situation that my spouse, is still a tourist in Portugal where I've already renewed my first I'm on a 3 year residency permit already. And it's just been impossible to get, to get residency appointments.

James Pittman: Well, I wanna shift over to to the situation in Spain a little bit because there's important changes going on. One of the changes that, is that Spain has announced a 100% tax on real estate purchases by foreigners, and this will affect, all real estate purchases whether they are connected with migration or or not. So can you give us some background about what brought about this development and what its implications are?

Andre Bothma: I take a a fairly jaundiced view on this particular topic in that, golden visa programs have become a political football across Europe. Yes. And, obviously, worldwide, the economy is such that, people are starting to feel the pinch. And whenever that happens, people become disgruntled, and they look for scapegoats. And what better scapegoat than a voiceless, teeny tiny minority of affluent foreigner who can't defend themselves? It's a typical straw man argument. So the the the loose logic goes that, Golden Visa Investors, I mean, 400 of them per year in Spain, have accounted the and, I mean, Spain is a big country. Make no mistake. So those 400, property investors have sparked a speculative bubble, which has not pushed up housing prices across Spain. And by terminating the Golden Visa Programme, we will be able to reduce property prices for the man in the street. That's that's kind of the logic. The maths doesn't really stack up. I mean, it's a it's a drop in the bucket compared to the total transactions in in Portugal, or in Spain, or and in Portugal for that matter. So the canceling canceling the golden visa programs won't address the the shortage of supply nor the fact that, property developers in these places are disincentivized to to to invest and to build property. So, yeah, it's it's it's an optics management exercise for the most part. And, you know, a 100% tax, on on on on foreign property purchases won't fix the problem either for the same reasons. I mean and frankly, northern northern, Europeans, the French, the German, you know, the Danish will still continue buying properties in sunny Spain, and they'll be able to do that without the 100% tax on top. So, I think these things are symbolic, and it's it's it's it's certainly, in my mind at least, political point scoring.

James Pittman: Understood. Understood. Now they're actually Spain is actually phasing out the golden visa program, in in April is what you you had mentioned to me earlier, just before we came on. Do you wanted to talk about sort of that as well?

Andre Bothma: Yeah. Again, frustratingly, if one works in the investment migration industry because, obviously, we've had a lot of programs shattered in recent years. The stated objective is to prevent speculation, property market speculation. I don't think it's gonna do that. I don't think that it was particularly a problem. These weren't people buying properties to flip them. They were keeping them as beach houses and second homes. So, the the the medicine won't won't treat the the disease as far as I'm concerned. Spain was a decent program. It was a very fast and efficient pros program in terms of processing times Andre, general predictability of, you know, of of what it would look like when you apply. They also cancel they're busy canceling, you know, things like the bank deposit option, which was substantially more. So it's it's a bit a bit disingenuous, but it's the reality is that investment migration is a is a multibillion dollar industry, and demand for second options, demand for backup plans, demand for somewhere to go if things go wrong back home is not going to dry up no matter what Brussels says or thinks about it. And, there is a there's a seminal court case going down between Malta and the European Commission as we speak. And every indication, and and that's not my opinion, that's coming from from top brass legal experts in in Europe, is that, the EC will lose the court case. So, we've had a slight low in new programs coming online in the next or in the last 2 years because a lot of countries in Europe were taking a bit of a wait and see approach.

Andre Bothma: Albania shuttered or or discontinued their plans to launch a citizenship by investment program because of pressure from Brussels. Montenegro has also been sitting on the hands waiting for that outcome. But, I mean, there are more than qualified rumors suggesting that the Montenegrin program will come back, in the event that Malta wins its case. And I think that we can then look forward to, a fair few more countries in in in continental Europe launching similar programs. We've just had a program launched in Sierra Leone, actually, which is interesting. So, I mean and not not that an African program is necessarily going to become the next Greece or the next Portugal. But, yeah, I mean, there's been a couple of new launches in recent times, and I'm I'm pretty hopeful that I'm pretty confident we're gonna see more of those in the next few years.

James Pittman: Out of curiosity, is that the first of its kind on the African continent?

Andre Bothma: Say well, Chemours had a pretty controversial program as well. I mean, that's obviously not continental Africa. That's an island off the coast of Africa. Mauritius has a a residency by investment top golden visa program as well. But in terms of actual citizenship by investment, I do believe it's one of the first, if not the first.

James Pittman: Quite interesting. We'll have to we'll we'll we'll we'll have to see, how that develops. It's some something to it's something to follow whether, you know, developing countries are are going to, you know, try to, let's say, compete or or or throw their hat in the ring as, you know, as the EU, you know, continues to, try to dissuade countries from having golden visa programs.

Andre Bothma: I mean, the world is changing fast at this stage.

James Pittman: Yes. For sure.

Andre Bothma: From if memory serves around 2035, Africa will have the world's largest workforce by headcount. Yes. So, I mean yeah. So early on has has quite a checkered past, but they've got a pretty progressive, government in place right now. And these guys are very keen to to turn things around. And, I mean, obviously, it's it's a developing country, so there will be a lot of challenges. But I think commensurate, there'll also be a lot of opportunities. So, yeah, it's it's one to to keep an eye on.

James Pittman: Absolutely. Let's let's, talk about an an old favorite, which is Greece. Certainly one of my favorite destinations. Now Greece has recently tightened its golden visa rules, and they've increased the minimum investment threshold, and they're actually imposing some restrictions on property usage. So let's let's talk a little bit about the background of these developments, yeah, and what the implications are.

Andre Bothma: So, the housing crises have, have kind of sprouted up across continental Europe. It's it's it's it's a it it's not a, a Spain specific problem. I mean, Portugal has an acute acute housing shortage, which has been exacerbated by the arrival of, a great many Ukrainian and Russian, nationals, but quite frankly, is also exacerbated by seasonal overtourism and stuff like that. So the problem is not dissimilar in in the major Greek cities, especially Athens and Thessaloniki. And that becomes a political headache for the for the good for the local government. So, with a view to address the program without throwing the baby out of the proverbial bathwater, Greece then said, okay. We're gonna push the prices up to get the volume down on this. We are going to prevent you from using your property as an Airbnb property under circum certain circumstances and locations. Andre if you want to buy in, you know, those prime kind of places, like, you know, the the the their sort of most popular islands and the the city centers, then you need to buy property with a minimum size of a 120 square meters. Fortunately, however, they have introduced an additional category called the conversion property category. Now that involves taking either a commercial property like a factory or a a mall or some sort of a commercial space and converting it into residential units. For properties like that, you can still get away with an investment of €250,000. And that actually happily enables you to invest in the city center in Athens or Thessaloniki as well. So even though in those areas, you're looking at a a standard rate of €800,000, you can still get away for 2.50 to this day.

James Pittman: So we wanna distinguish, the golden visa from another visa that Greece has, which is also very important, which is the financially independent person or FIP visa. So let's let's distinguish these 2 and talk about the FIP a little bit.

Andre Bothma: Okay. So, the FIP visa is not similar to the Portuguese d seven visa, and you'll find similar flavors of that in places like Italy, where it's referred to as the elective residency visa, or in Spain, it's known as the non lucrative visa. Across all of these programs, applicants typically have to have passive stable income, and whilst you can apply on the basis of savings only in in Spain, in the other countries, they typically prefer to see stable passive income in the form of property rental income or sort of royalties or or something in that line. Yeah. I mean, it's, again, it's a it's a visa category that leads to residency permit for people wishing to settle in the country pretty much full time rather than serving as a backup backup option. And it's fairly it's been fairly popular, but, on the FIP, the, Andre mean, I'm not exactly privy to why, but there have been delays in terms of the processing on that visa. So it's, I'm not sure what the exact status is in 2025, but towards the tail, end of 2024, people were having a hard time getting it.

James Pittman: You know, I would think that, these visas are quite popular. I mean, in terms of Spain with the, yeah, with the non lucrative Andre Greece with the FIP, I mean, do do have these become popular options? Do you see a lot of takers?

Andre Bothma: The d seven has has has been one of the most popular ones, and by more popular in in in in our experience by several orders of magnitude. And the primary reason for that is that the on paper at least, the d seven has a very low minimum income threshold. So in 2025, for example, the minimum passive income requirement for a single applicant is €870 per month. Having said that, though, I mean, you're going to spend more than that renting a property, practically anywhere in Portugal. So it doesn't you even even though that is the the and, I mean, it's it's kind of connected to, you know, the the minimum wage in the country, but 8.70 won't give you far. And in all likelihood, that won't be sufficient to convince the Portuguese authorities to grant you the residency visa.

James Pittman: Alright. Well, let's skip, over just a bit to Italy, and let's talk about Italy's golden visa program. What are what are their thresholds, and the benefits associated with Italy as distinguished from the others?

Andre Bothma: The Italian visa is unique in many respects, but first and foremost, it's unique in that in the fact that it never had a residency by property acquisition channel. I mean, so you could never go and buy yourself a second home there to obtain a golden visa. Whereas in Greece, Portugal, and Spain, those were options available to you. Well, I mean, it's still available in Greece, but the other ones, Portugal shattered that some years ago, and Spain is about to go away in its entirety. So on the Italian program, you don't have the option of purchasing a home, which means that they don't run into obstacles with, rising property prices being blamed on foreigners and or on the golden visa program. In Italy, the program is known as the the Italian investor visa. It's it's not known as a golden visa per se, although it is the same thing. In as much as, once you have your residency permit, you don't need to spend any time in the country unless you want to, but you also have the option of spending 365 days per year living there, should you choose. So that's the the one benefit is that it's got no minimum stay requirements. It's very quick. It's gonna be up to I mean, within 3 to 4 months, you can have your residency permits in hand. And then another compelling benefit is the fact that you only have to invest. You only have to commit your capital once you've been issued your residency. So that removes any kind of, like, prog program risks, whereas, I mean, the in in in most, if not all of these other countries we've been talking about, you first need to invest and then go and apply for your residency permit off the back of being able to prove the investment. So, yeah, I mean, that that's pretty attractive. As for your investment choices in, in EITI, they're they're fairly interesting as well. Starting from the cheapest, it's €250,000 investment in an innovative start up that has to be in an eligible database of start ups. But start up investments are obviously very high risk. So I typically invest I mean, things you know, there there are programs coming online that will, you know, derisk things to a certain extent. But as of today, I would typically refer to those as the donation based option because, you're probably going to see your money dropping into a startup hole and not get it back, which, I mean, on a on a on a sort of a price point would align pretty well with the Portuguese cultural, Golden Visa, which is also pretty much a startup for the most part a donation for the most part. So, yeah, 250 onto a startup, or you have the option of investing €500,000 in, either the stocks or shares of a Italian company. Now there are many ways this is gonna cut here, but, especially in the last year or year and a half, we've seen more done for you package options coming online here too. And whilst you could buy property in Portugal and Greece and Spain, no one really paid too much attention to the Italian program. But now with Spain gone, hung Hungary's €500,000 property acquisition option being scrapped, and Portugal no longer being an option, people are starting to look at Italy in a new light. So the two options that I'm I'm I'm getting a lot of inquiries for is, the regulated real estate fund, which invests in hospitality assets. So, they don't take any bold or licensing risk. They'll go and invest in properties that are 4 star rated, convert them to a 5 star rating, and then commensurate to be able to charge higher rates. So, that is a 10 year option with the ability to to to walk away after 5 years. Andre mean, that gives you the sort of the the assurance of a bricks and mortar tried and true business model, you know, presented by by very expert kind of operators in in that space. The other option is a curated portfolio of classic Italian stocks, which kind of have, for the last decade or so, performed really well, and, you know, should, all other things being equal, perform pretty well going forward. That option has the advantage that you have annual liquidity. So if your plans or your life situation changes and you want to give up on your Italian residency permits, you can exit that once once per year. So, I mean, yeah, it's it's been underrated for for a long time. Obviously, the commissions involved in property deals are higher, which means that the entire industry, invest investment migration industry, were incentivized to focus on on real estate based programs rather than the other ones. But, yeah, I think we'll see a lot more activity on the Italian front in the year to come, especially now with the return of, Donald Trump to the Oval Office.

James Pittman: Indeed. Indeed. It's it's one of the it's a it's a huge driver, and, it's it's something I I think I'm gonna be following is the rate of ex expatriation or yes. The rate of expatriation from the United States, is something that you're seeing it already.

Andre Bothma: A dramatic, increase in this since last year already.

James Pittman: Absolutely. The the number of people talking about it as an option has has just increased dramatically over the last 10 years Andre and, is is poised for or is in the process of another spike, I'm sure. Indeed. And it's something we'll we'll we'll talk about again. I'm I I feel confident. In Hungary, which is, you know, possibly not the the first one that pops to mind when you think about these types of visa, but they introduced a new program in 2024 with a quite nice, price point for investment of €250,000. So let's just contrast this with some of the others in Europe in terms of its benefits and requirements.

Andre Bothma: I had high hopes for the Hungarian program, the new guest investor visa. And I in the I mean, it it ran about a year late in in coming online, properly coming online and starting to process application. During which time, I had about 3 or 400 inquiries from highly motivated prospects. So I was pretty excited about this, and then it the delays kind of, like, ran into late 2024. And what we Andre what we ended up with was a a shadow of what was expected. So I am mindful of how Andre when I criticize programs like this because it's a pretty small industry. But, let's yeah. Apart from the let's yeah. Apart from the delays, let's let's look at the the the entry point program, the €250,000, euro real estate fund. Firstly, it's a it's a 0% yield option, which you effectively need to keep for up to 11 years to be able to renew your 10 year residency permit for a second, for a second 10 year period. And it's not guaranteed that you will need it, but, you know, we whilst it's not crystal clear yet, you know, it would be advisable to keep the to keep the investments in place for 11 years up until you've got your second 10 year, residency permit. So that's that's that's a serious opportunity cost even on a 250 k investment. To add insult to entry, the the processing feature that is this whopping €60,000. Now that harks back to the days of the €300,000 Hungarian Andre program. But if you go and look at what what what you typically end up spending on fees and processing costs for all of the other programs, I mean, that's several orders of magnitude more. So we we've been seeing pushback from the market where people just say, look, it's a 250 ks Pittman, 60 ks in fees just doesn't make any sense. I'd rather go to Greece where I can buy an off plan convert or, you know, or a converted, property for, you know, €260,000 all in, and I have the underlying asset which I can use. So, on a fee structure point of view, it doesn't make any sense either. And this is perhaps one of the more sensitive points about it, but the it's a very non liberalized, agent structure. I mean, there are very few people from whom you can purchase this, in addition to there only being one fund approved to to invest in. So it it just doesn't kind of, like, empower the consumer with choice. And everyone well, not everybody, but a a a great number of of of clients were holding out for the €500,000 option because they wanted to buy a property in Budapest, which we could we can either have their children use while they study there or, you know, as a second home or whatever the case is. But with that off the table, the and and the 250 k option looking pretty lackluster, you know, the the uptake has been negligible.

James Pittman: I would think that, perhaps, you know, they're going to have to do substantial amount of tinkering with it or or really maybe even major revision to it before it actually becomes, a viable option or desirable option. Let's put it that way.

Andre Bothma: Yeah. The market decides, as I wrote a while ago, that which pro programs will flourish and which won't. And until such time as they do that tinkering and tweak it up to look more market related, I think they're going to struggle getting getting massive traction.

James Pittman: And I think that the the political and cultural climate in Hungary doesn't help matters either. You know, it's it's, a country which has, really kind of, retreated a lot from liberal values and, you know, taken some contentious positions, you know, vis a vis the rest of the EU. So I mean,

Andre Bothma: if yeah. Yeah. I mean, Orban certainly has has done exactly that. I typically tell clients too that if you don't like the program, you're not necessarily the target audience for it. There are many folk for whom, you know, that kind of more culturally conservative, you know, Christian conservative kind of space makes sense Andre for whom that that is attractive. So, yeah, it depends who we ask.

James Pittman: Well, in Malta, which is a, who has for many, many decades been a favored retirement destination, particularly for for the British, They have both a golden visa and a citizenship by investment program.

Andre Bothma: Now what

James Pittman: are let's talk about the differences between these options and other relevant factors, you know, operating in Malta with, I mean, it's a rather crowded island, frankly. And I you know, so let's talk about that in terms of and also with regard to the real estate situation there.

Andre Bothma: Okay. So, I mean, yeah, it it is the island option. It's not in continental Europe. So if you don't want to live in an island, that would be the place for you. Having said that, the Maltese golden visa, the Maltese permanent residency program as it is formally known, is a great deal. It's it's one of the only 2 programs of its sort that give you permanent residency status straight off the bat. Cyprus is the other one. And it's it's it's an affordable option. You have the option to either rent a property for 5 years or to purchase a property. The pricing on the property as well as the processing fees and and some bits and pieces associated with that have gone up. So whereas you could probably, until the end of last year, have gotten away for about €150,000 if you were to rent a property. You're probably looking at slightly over €200,000 now. So but, yeah, I mean, it's that's that that's a good option. It's a good value buy. It's predictable. It's relatively fast, and you get an English speaking environment. Now that would kind of be the the Toyota Corolla, where the citizenship program and, I mean, it's concrete known as the citizenship by exceptional services for investment program. And I got that right the first time. Yeah. You you have the option of renting a property to do that too, but then you're looking at north of €690,000. And if you were to purchase a property that goes up to maybe 1 point €3,000,000, and that is for the standard residency track, which is 36 months until you become a citizen and can apply for your passport. If you want the, the the 12 month track, then that the the nonrefundable Pittman amount goes up to a whopping €750,000. So, that we typically trot out for billionaires. UltraHondid with clientele are the only people who can really afford to throw 1,500,000 or thereabouts at a problem like this. But, yeah, Bothma Andre excellent options. And, as I mentioned previously, I'm pretty pleased with the prospect that Malta will win their case against the EC.

James Pittman: Let's let the audience know what the case is about.

Andre Bothma: The European Commission is of the opinion that, Malta hosting a citizenship by investment program is contrary to the values and laws of the of the European Union. The the proceeding kind of legal structure was that every nation state gets to naturalize whomever they so choose. And, I mean, the the European Union as a trade bloc would have been nice, but now it's become more of a supranational government structure, and they are trying to control what their member states do. I think there there is a distinct ideological underpinning to this. Andre I mean, that sort of sense of what is what is just and equitable, you know, the equality of outcomes they strive to achieve for all of their member states, citizens is is is key to this. The idea that you can buy your way in and get VIP treatment doesn't sit well within the general project that is the the European Union. So yeah. I mean, they're they're they're they're I think they're fundamentally against people getting the sort of red carpet treatment. The accusations or the the concerns raised is that these programs pose a risk for, you know, bad actors getting into the EU by the back door as it were. But the reality is that, I mean, the the EU have welcomed scores of of of of refugees. Andre, the the amount of bad actors that walked across their borders during that kind of period, would have been substantially greater. And quite frankly, I mean, if if you can imagine a Mexican cartel boss, they're not going to apply for a temporary residency permit. What they'll probably do is forge papers, prove ancestral citizenship, and then get a passport straight up the bat. So it's it's it's completely far fetched that a criminal actor of of that description would apply for a golden visa. It just doesn't work that way. So, yeah, I think that many of the the concerns raised are are largely unfounded, if not 100% unfounded. And it would appear that the European judges are going to find to to to to to agree with that.

James Pittman: Let's move on to another island, shall we, which would be Cyprus, which is another of my favorite destinations Andre would probably make my own short list of, if I were considering these programs. But what are the latest developments in Cyprus's Golden Visa program, and how does it stand out among European residency options?

Andre Bothma: Cyprus is an interesting, a very interesting option with a with with with one key deficiency. Because they've got a a territorial dispute with with, with Northern Cyprus, which is Turkish administered, they have been unable to join the Schengen zone. And which means that residents in in Cyprus cannot, enjoy visa free travel within the European Union, the Schengen area. So for people looking to obtain the ability to travel in Europe visa free, it's not an option that made a lot of sense thus far. During last year, there was talk that they were actually going to to reduce the investment requirements, and that would have been very exciting had that come to pass, because Cyprus is now one of the few remaining countries where you can buy residential property of your choosing, and get a golden visa.

Andre Bothma: The one caveat is that it has to be a new off plan property. You can't get a resale property in Cyprus and get a golden visa. So you typically need to buy it from a property developer. Having said that, the news broke, sort of a week ago, I do believe, that Cyprus is very close to to to gaining access to the Schengen zone. And, I mean, a a lawyer that that commented in one of my LinkedIn posts made the point and said, he wonders how they're going to resolve that territorial dispute with with with Northern Cyprus because, effectively, what would need to happen is that the green line or green zone or whatever they call the the no man's land between the 2, yeah, would need to become a hard EU border. But, I mean, we're living in uncertain times, and I think that the EU would be eager to grow their footprint in these times. So, the, the Cypriot president made the announcement, so it seems to be serious. And I actually spoke with one of my suppliers on the ground there last night, who was in touch with a very, high ranking government official. And it appears that it is very much in the works. And that this visa free status could actually be in place by as early as 2027. At which point, the separate permanent residency program, the golden visa would become a a lot more appealing. And the intrinsic value of the product would be a lot higher, which if that were to happen, it's pretty likely that the authorities would then decide to increase the the price, the minimum investment requirement rather than to reduce it as they were previously intending on doing when they still didn't have Schengen access.

James Pittman: And, Andre, if memory serves correctly, was there a citizenship by investment option that was phased out in Cyprus?

Andre Bothma: Yeah. It was phased out, amidst amidst the fair amount of controversy, and allegations of of improper behavior and lacking due diligence amongst other issues. It was also a a property based option whereby if you bought a villa for 2, 2,000,000 and some change, you could then get a a separate passport, which is a powerful travel document. So, yeah, I mean, that court case, well, it's actually a criminal trial, is ongoing as we speak to. Interesting. But, yeah, it's, that was a that was an exceptionally attractive program. And, I mean, it it it it it's a shame that it's gone. I would like to see a a a version 2 of that coming back at some stage, but, the the consensus is that it's not yet the time for it. They've also been revoking a fair volume of of passports where people materially misrepresented this their their their circumstances or their Bothma fights.

James Pittman: Well, Cyprus is is is gonna be one to follow because it's,

Andre Bothma: you

James Pittman: know, it's it's one of the one of the most attractive destinations, and yet it has this intractable political situation. Do you do you handle anything now this is going a little bit of scans, but, with regard to, residency in in Northern Cyprus?

Andre Bothma: Northern Cyprus is only recognized by Turkey as a as a nation state. So it's I I'm aware that there have been, let's call them, influencers in the space. We have been, promoting property property there, but I I think that's a very risky turf.

James Pittman: Risky because you don't know how the how the how the political situation is ultimately gonna shake out if and if and when they ever get around to some resolution. And there's there's still lots of, cases, you know, by by former residents of of Greeks who were forced to leave the north who claim that their properties were confiscated. So, so it it seems to have some inherent risk, that, you know, you put in the feed there's the potential in the future that you could lose the rights to the property. You don't know. There's always that

Andre Bothma: you criminally acquired someone else's property effectively. So in fact, I would I would give that a wide berth.

James Pittman: Alright. Austria, in the heart of Central Europe, certainly a lovely country by anyone's standard. Can you tell us about their residency by investment program, and and, who does that appeal to?

Andre Bothma: So Austria I mean, 1st and foremost, it's it's it's worth noting that Austria does not have a formalized residency by investment program. They have a discretionary citizenship by investment program, which is more more well known, if nothing else. But, it's it's, typically, you're looking at an investment of around €8,000,000, and it has to be an active investment in the economy. The other thing to note with Austria is that while some investors who have obtained naturalization based on these investments have managed to keep their existing citizenship status, the Austrians typically require you to give up your your native passport if you've become an Austrian citizen.

James Pittman: Okay. So right away, we've sort of limited its attractiveness. First of all, it it's certainly, you know, not gonna be one of the more budget friendly destinations. And, yeah, and this so this so both both the requirement the financial requirement as well as, the potential exclusivity of having Austrian citizenship only is certainly something that's gonna dramatically limit its appeal.

Andre Bothma: Yeah. It the the timeline to apply can also be any 3 anywhere between a couple of months 3 years, depending on on on the size of the investment. So, yeah, it it's it's a classy place. It's a stable place, and and for dynastic operators, I mean, it's it's it's a good one because it's not going to draw any of the kind of criticism that the mainstream more affordable programs would. But yeah. I mean, it certainly is is a is a product for the rarefied few. As for the residency options, Austria doesn't have a formal residency by investment program, so there's no golden visa per se. But there are a number of done for you package options whereby you can gain, a, golden visa equivalent residency permit in in Austria. The Austrian circled highest status residency permits are extremely lump limited in numbers, so they're relatively hard to get hold of. And the Austrian bureaucracy is arguably well, I mean, immigration bureaucracies are hard to navigate by design because they intended to throttle volume of people moving to a particular place. So, yeah, working with a a concierge products, you know, a white glove service provider on the ground that can give you access to, in this instance, a 2 year job contract, which is then converted into something like the financially independent program in Greece, is a viable option to get in the door. And you can then also basically come and go as you please. Subject to, language proficiency requirements, you can also naturalize in due course. So, yeah, I mean, there there are options. Austria is not a is not a a plan b destination that comes to mind, for a great many people. Is it an action well, provided that you can get the plan b access to it via one of these higher status residency permits, it's an excellent place to have in your back pocket. But for the most part, people looking for plan b options like real estate or they like being able to make a nominal return on investment whilst having their capital pretty well shielded from from risk. Whereas in the Austrian program that I mentioned, you're looking at a sunk cost. So you you have a pretty chunky kind of, fee to participate in the program, and you need to then sponsor your salary, for 2 years on top of that at to the tune of €70,000 per, per year. But when all is said and done, you're looking at about €230,000 to get this kind of flexible residency there, and that would compare pretty well with the Portuguese Golden Visa or, you know, even the the start up Co Investo Visa price wise.

James Pittman: Understood. So it's certainly, it's, as you said, certainly a classy place and very, very, very lovely. It seems like they're just, it's one that, you know, it's it's particular prerequisites and and situation and and so forth makes it, you you have to have the right customer for whom I think that that one would be the right fit.

Andre Bothma: Yeah. What is useful about it is that, Russians can apply for this particular program, whereas for the as for the rest of the golden visas in Europe, they're no longer eligible to apply there.

James Pittman: Now is that by sort of fiat of the EU, or or how has that how's that come about?

Andre Bothma: Well, it's it's it's not a golden visa program, and the the Australians obviously decide what they do. Curiously, in Portugal, when the, the war in Ukraine broke out, the Portuguese, bureaucracy stopped processing Russian golden visa applications. But there was never a legal mandate for them to do so. There was no law passed in Portugal that that that compelled them to do it. They just kind of followed suit as it were, for a while. But, I mean, Russian applications are now are now being processed again. So yeah. No. I think that there's a bit of a a, you know, a in the spirit of of of being part of the EU, countries follow suit.

James Pittman: So, Andre, I mean, sometimes, you know, it's it's a it's an evolving landscape, and there are a lot of changes that are influenced by by the politics and and and and governments coming into power. So sometimes these programs, you know, can be phased out pretty quickly. I mean, how does sudden policy changes in Golden Visa programs affect existing applicants and their their future interest?

Andre Bothma: That's a good question. Golden Visa investors have legal rights enshrined in law, in in the the underlying program laws. So the, a new incoming government can't unilaterally decide that we're going to strip you of the rights you had under the program when you had invested, under a particular set of requirements and rules. So the Portuguese authorities wanted to run through the termination of that program. And, I mean, what they basically were were staring down was the biggest class action lawsuit in the industry. So, then after a bit of to and fro, you know, they kind of backtracked Andre they were like, yes. Cool. So whatever kind of benefits and and and privileges you enjoyed under the program would be grandfathered in and would be honored over time. So in the main, that has been the I mean, okay. I'm saying in the main. When, the Canadian well, when Quebec canceled its its program, a whole lot of investors who had already applied were left in the lurch. And that left, a very bad test in in a great many Chinese applicants' mouth. But, yeah, in in the main the the in recent years, when a program is is shuttered, it's typically with a reasonable kind of, notice period and with the sunset clause, you know, giving people the the the the the ability to complete whatever transactions they have to complete. Case in point now is the Greek program whereby, applicants had to put down a 10% deposit by a certain date last year Andre then complete their their their property transactions by the end of 2024. There was such a tsunami of applications Andre the bureaucratic offices dealing with things like, you know, certificates of compliance and whatever else not was struggling to to give these people what they needed in time. So the Greek authorities have actually postponed the deadline, by about 2 months, I do believe now, to give people the ability to complete the the transactions that started Andre, consequently, to still qualify for the €250,000, price points. So, yeah, as as as a rule of thumb, if programs were to get terminated, the rights and privileges investors Andre would be grandfathered in.

James Pittman: In our remaining time, I wanna mention a little bit about the digital nomad visas. So we've we've mentioned some of them, but, I mean, do you wanna sort of talk about the just the general landscape of digital nomad visas? Who's offering them, and how they, you know, cater to the growing remote workforce, and and what some of the the other considerations Andre.

Andre Bothma: The pandemic was a was obviously a very challenging time for for everybody, but what it did enable what it did create was the the understanding that people can work remotely effectively and efficiently. And that was kind of when the whole digital nomad visa movement started burgeoning worldwide. Now in Portugal, for example, the d seven visa was was was always available to applicants with passive income, not only people of retirement age. So what we found was that a large percentage, over 50% of, the the d seven visa applicants that we deal with in any given month were actually digital nomads or remote workers or whatever the case is. And, I mean, I say digital nomad I mean, remote work. It's someone who wants to come and stay there for a year or 2 years and is working for a foreign company remotely. So when the Portuguese authorities introduced the d 8 visa program, which is the actual, you know, fit for purpose visa regime for for remote workers, From 1 month to the next, we started selling more d 8 visas than we'd sold d 7 visas the month prior. So for a long time, remote workers were applying for the d 7 visa on the basis of passive income. But once that the d eight visa went live, the the majority of the applicants were remote workers Andre digital nomad. The other thing that kind of factored into that was the fact that the the tax benefits under the former non habitual residency tax program, were terminated for for retirees as well. So it's no Portugal is no longer as attractive a place from a tax perspective for retirees. So Spain also has a digital nomad visa, and that's one that's become very popular. I mean, Spain as a as a travel destination is very popular, so it it kind of makes sense that there would be a high demand for that program too. Also fairly reasonable income requirements, and there are a great many platform players who are now giving you the ability to do it yourself as it were, but with with the support of a system that prompts you to, you know, as to what the kind of formats of your documentation your photos need to be. So, yeah, I mean, I think that across Europe, they are they're popular. Of course, when you have a digital nomad residency in Portugal, that enables you to spend some time in Greece or in Spain as well because it's a it's a visa free travel area. So you will probably find that people, well, remote workers would go for the most accessibly priced program, with the easiest requirements Andre then use that as a platform to explore Europe, you know, at their leisure.

James Pittman: It's certainly something that's so popular now. I mean, I I practically every week, I run into people who are interested in becoming digital nomads. That's something which, you know, I just I I hear from people about their plans for doing that and their interest in doing that just by virtue of, you know, where I'm situated in the immigration space. But I it'll be very interesting to follow, you know, whether whether that continues to be a popular trend Andre and and more and more countries continue to, you know, create digital nomad visas. Certainly something we wanna we wanna follow.

Andre Bothma: South Africa were keen on following suits on this as well. And then the in inevitably, the conversation becomes, when does the digital nomad need to stop paying taxes locally? And do they need to register for taxes before they they get their residency permit? An influx of digital nomads obviously have a inflationary impact on on on accommodation cost. So even though they're they do, you know, have a lot of expendable income Andre there is the economic multiplier effect at play when they when they come and stay in a place for in the midterm. You also do have unintended consequences, which even in Cape Town now has prompt sparked a bit of a low level resistance to to digital nomads and blowback against them. Spain has had the same thing in terms of its, overtourism challenges.

James Pittman: It's it that's that's one of the countervailing, considerations. You know, with overtourism and sort of rising accommodation costs and and things like that becoming con becoming, you know, factors in the political debate, it's you know, it remains to be seen. But, I mean, you you always have to wonder how, you know, how big of a magnitude do do the digital nomads have in any given location. I mean, it's something which, you know, we've heard discussed in Southeast Asia. We've heard discussed around the EU, and you say it's, it's also an issue in South Africa. So, but Well, this

Andre Bothma: is the issue. I don't know. Receipt or perceived.

James Pittman: Right? And a lot of times a lot of times, it actually is because of the numbers of people that we're talking about. I mean, it's something which they're they're highly visible, which makes them, you know, an an attractive red herring, I think.

Andre Bothma: But it Convenient scapegoats, indeed.

James Pittman: Convenient scapegoat is a better way to put it. Right? And but the question is, what is the real the real tangible impact, on cost? You know, that's that's a separate it's a separate analysis.

Andre Bothma: The availability or the or the or the dearth of stock locally is typically a bigger challenge. And, I mean, Cape Town, over the last 30 years, have had a a supply side constraint when it came to rental accommodation. And the reality is that it's a it's a compact city with not enough land between the sea and the mountain to build on. So, yeah, it's it's I mean, consequently, you know, there there are many areas that have been developed outside of the city center. But in the City Bowl area and in the the Southern Suburbs commercial district, it's it's a very compact space, physically speaking. So in those areas, rental accommodation is challenging to find. And, I mean, as we speak today, that is the case in in Cape Town too.

James Pittman: Now, Andre, I understand that as part of your services, you're not you don't provide specific individualized tax advice. But by way of general information, are there any sort of major tax, considerations that people should just be aware of?

Andre Bothma: Yeah. There actually are. And as one tax tax lawyer phrased it to me, you don't really wanna be in Portugal if you're not covered by the non habitual tax regime, which is an advantageous tax tax regime, which you can register for upon moving there. The initial NHL program was terminated, a while ago, and they've literally just launched the new NHL 2 point o, which has pretty decent tax advantages for highly qualified people, sort of especially in the sort of research and techno innovation and technology kind of space. But, a a big and obvious potential issue to be aware of is that if you are getting paid out of a tax haven and Portugal has a list of tax havens that is substantially longer than the EU standard list. I mean, for example, if you're getting paid out of Dubai, for example, even if you were eligible to pay a flat tax of 20%, income tax, personal income tax based on the nature of the work you do under the NHL program. If you're getting paid out of a tax haven, as defined by the Portuguese tax authorities, then you would be hit with a flat tax rate of 48% straight off the bat. So that wouldn't even be a a staged or a staggered kind of scale. So, it is whether you go there as a digital nomad, or as a retiree, it is absolutely vital to seek tailor made, tax advice before settling in Portugal because, yeah, you could you could be in for a rude awakening otherwise.

James Pittman: No. That's that's a huge that's a hugely important issue, and I and I'm so glad that you mentioned it. And and there's certainly a lot there Andre certainly, you know, a number of excellent, you know, sort of, tax lawyers or international tax consultants who can who can advise, but, definitely something to watch out for. Now, do do you wanna mention just, before we close about, how, you know, how d seven visa d seven visa dot com actually assists clients in navigating the complexities of European immigration Andre what sets your part?

Andre Bothma: A d seven visa, we kind of have a down selling ethos rather than upselling ethos. So, if a d seven visa, for example, were to work for your situation, I'm not going to try and sell you a golden visa. Having said that, it's, for most people doing a kind of a plan b investment, it's not something they look into or or or work with every day. So, we effectively help clients to navigate the landscape, to understand the differences between the programs, to understand the drawbacks and the benefits of each individual program, and then ultimately to, to, you know, to put them in touch if it's not one of the programs we do in house with highly qualified experts in country who can then assist them with the whole process. So, yeah, ultimately, it's, a a large component of what we do is is client education, in addition to the consulting work. But it's it's ultimately equipping clients to to feel empowered to make the right decision for them. So that's that's the backbone of what we do.

James Pittman: So, Andre, we've we've we've really done a pretty good survey, comparing, you know, programs across Europe. But is there are there any new products or anything new that you're really excited about that's that's coming up?

Andre Bothma: Indeed there is. I mentioned the the firm, Visa d'Oro, who is responsible for the startup co investor visa program previously. They are putting the finishing touches on a cancer research Golden Visa, which is going to be the first of its kind in that a donation towards, cutting edge cancer research will also get you the benefits of treatment at a cutting edge research facility and treatment center in the event that you were to get diagnosed with cancer. And unlike conventional cancer insurance products, there's no pre screening requirement. So ostensibly, if you even if you had a pre diagnosed oncological affliction, you could still benefit from treatment. So, yeah, philanthropic giving in the in the sort of cancer research space is a $1,000,000,000 industry. And, I I'm pretty excited to see how this is going to to be received. It certainly is the first of its kind in the Portuguese market. So, yeah, that should be live in the next week or 2.

James Pittman: That that's that's really fascinating. And and, Andre, we'll link to, some information about that because it's it's a it's a very exciting development. So so thanks for bringing that up. And I'm sure we're gonna have you back again, because this is such a fascinating and evolving area. But, I mean, what would sort of, like, your general predictions, in a general sense be for, like, the next period than, let's say, the next couple of years?

Andre Bothma: What has been a constant is that the programs that are available have become, more expensive, and we've also lost a number of programs. I think the pendulum will swim swing back, and we will see the emergence of new program, both golden visa and citizenship or investment oriented programs. But perhaps with the caveat that given the the housing crises across Europe, I think that being able to buy a property to get a golden visa will become the exception to the rule rather than the the general norm. I mean, I I I felt that that Latin America has been underrepresented in the citizenship by investment space for for many years. And whilst I don't have a crystal ball, I would, expect to see a citizenship by investment program outside of El Salvador's freedom visa passport program, launched in the next year. I would certainly expect as as as the impact of climate change starts hitting more small island nations, that we'll see 1, 2, or 2 more of those launch in the next year or 2.

James Pittman: I I know we focus today on on the EU for the most part. Are you working with applicants for the Turkish program? Turkey has a citizenship by investment as well.

Andre Bothma: Turkey is not really a a core program for me. I mean, it's a decent program, and Turkey is a very livable country with a lot of resources, and food security Andre and and wonderful kind of natural, you know, vistas and what have you. So, I think it's a good program. I there have been rumors that that will increase in price to $600,000 in the near future. That hasn't actually happened yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does.

James Pittman: But they did have one increase. They went from, I believe it was

Andre Bothma: 250 to 2

James Pittman: 50 to 400. Yes.

Andre Bothma: Yeah. Yeah. So, I I think that the the general trend would be that these things become more restrictive and and more more more costly. And quite frankly, I mean, Greece is a good example of this. They're now increasing in price, or they have increased in price. So if you were going to wait to see what the outcome was of whether Trump got reelected before you make a decision on buying Greece or not, you're going to end up spending more money unless you buy the conversion category, which necessarily is not, you know, an open market property. I'm aware that as someone who promotes these programs, you know, me telling a client that they need to hurry up and and and and pull the trigger, looks like it could be self serving. But, I mean, I find it deeply frustrating because a lot of clients whom I dealt with over the years could have become gotten the green cards in America for $500,000 rather than the 800,000 they now need to part with. There was a time not too long ago when a hotel share scheme investment in Portugal would have cost you a meager €280,000. And that that's radical. Whereas if you now want to invest, it's €500,000. So, fundamentally, I I think that if if if if if anyone is serious about getting a a decent plan b in place, the the the the regulations and the conditions upon which they can get it today will probably be the best that they can expect to get it ever.

James Pittman: And and it's it's not yeah. And I hear you. And and and and it's it's actually not just self serving on your part. I mean, you're not the only person who's saying that. I mean, if you if you look over sometimes, if you tune into, Andrew Henderson at Nomad Capitalist, he talks about this. He talks about that as well. That if you're, that it's there's not really time to waste if this is something you're seriously thinking about, and and today is probably the best it's gonna be for for the foreseeable future.

Andre Bothma: By the same token, people are petrified of making a mistake. But, I mean, if you're going to buy a conversion property in in or or any property in Greece, and you decide that you all of a sudden really grew allergic to Greek food Andre you hate island life, and you can't stand the sunshine anymore, then you could just resell your property. Or you could also if you if you if you have reservations about actually owning your property offshore or abroad, you could, you could do the bank deposit option. But then at at any point, if you feel that this is no longer serving your your interests, then you can just course correct and sell the property or take your money out of the bank account and move on with your life. Yes. So it's yeah. I mean, I think that the the cost of inaction will be higher than the cost of action, all things being equal.

James Pittman: And and on that, that's a good note to to leave it at for the time being. It's it's it's an area that, you know, I love talking about. Fascinating area, and I'm sure and of interest to a growing number of people, including a growing number of Americans. So Andre Bothma, working in Cape Town, South Africa Andre in Porto, Portugal. It's been a pleasure having you to talk about Golden Visas across Europe, and I'm sure we'll be speaking to you again. So thank you

Andre Bothma: so much. Delighted. Thanks for having me.

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