James Pittman: Welcome to Immigration Uncovered, the docketwise video podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of immigration, shedding light on the latest developments, cutting edge practice management strategies, and the transformative impact of legal technology. I'm your host, James Pittman, and this is episode 27. I'm joined today by doctor Angel Contreras Cruz.

Angel Contreras Cruz: He is a new PhD in from Portland State University, the Department of Technology Management. So, Angel, welcome. Oh, thank you, James, for inviting me to your, podcast. I'm very happy to be here. And, Yeah.

Angel Contreras Cruz: Let's talk about, immigration policy.

James Pittman: Absolutely. So so Angel, just finished his PhD, successfully defended it, and, his research is a hierarchical decision, model decision making model to use, for use by immigration policymakers. So let's let's dig into this. I mean, so just can on here, can you give us sort of the nut shell version, just an introduction to what your research on immigration policy evaluation for technology professionals in the US is all about?

Angel Contreras Cruz: Of course. So the idea began after I collaborate on a research paper about skill immigration in Australia. I mean, because I'm doing a PhD program, I needed a research topic in order to do to write a dissertation. So after talking with my academic adviser, we came up with the idea of evaluating US immigration policies for high skilled or technological, professionals in the United States in order to narrow down the scope of the research. So that's why we focus on technology professionals.

James Pittman: Right. And it's super important. I mean, immigration gets so much airtime as a policy issue in the United States, and there's it's such a multifaceted, you know, field, if you wanna call it multifaceted issue policy wise. But we're we're gonna focus specifically on what US immigration policy should be with regard to technology professionals. I mean, we have we are a world leader in technology that's been, for many decades now, that's been one of the United States' strongest economic areas.

James Pittman: And we have, you know, obviously, the most cutting edge technology companies in the world right here, but we need people from around the world, the smartest people to come to the United States to work at these companies. And that requires that our immigration policies and our system of visa issuance, reflects, you know, those needs and allows for the best people to come here. So, you know, let's talk about what why immigration policies in the US impact technology professionals seeking to immigrate, or let's talk about how do currently the immigration policies impact, tech

Angel Contreras Cruz: professionals? Sure. Well, having this training immigration policies affect host countries with the ability to attract or retain international talent. So just imagine that the h one b visa, program has the same cap for the last 20 years or so. So this is a this is a problem because the number of applications for this type of visa, it's increasing exponentially over the last years. But the cap of 808,005,000, h one b visas remain the same. There is a there is a a competition about, among countries in order to keep or attract talent. Like, for example, last year, Canada offer a a program for h one b US visa holders in order to keep the the talent in the region. So they offer the flexibility to move to Canada. But those strategies are in order to, attract talent in other countries. So a lot of international students, once they graduate, the most common path is to look for an h one b visa. So if the US is not offering enough visas for for international students that graduate from US universities, they need to look for all those opportunities to relocate to other countries, and they are taking all their knowledge that they get in the US to their native country or to other countries around their world.

James Pittman: Okay. Now you have we're gonna get to your slides in a minute, and I want you to show your slide presentation. But you I I saw one of the things that, attracted my attention was the, sort of a a lag, let's call it a gap or a lag, between the STEM OPT, which is optional practical training, and and CPT, which is continual practical training. There's a difference in the number of authorizations for the STEM OPT, CPT granted along with an increase in h one b applications. In other words, granting of STEM OPT and CPT was going down for a couple years, let's say, from 2019 to 2020 onward, while the h one b number of applications continue to increase. So let's take that as an example. What's happening to those, former OPT, CPT students

Angel Contreras Cruz: if they're not getting h one b's? So well, I think this COVID has influence has an influence on this situation. But, I mean, the number of, CPT applications, include both groups, like STEM graduates and not STEM graduates, or STEM student, not STEM students. And the number of, applications for STEM programs, I think I mean, this is my personal opinion, but I think that policies and companies are not giving enough opportunity for recent graduates from these programs. I mean, sometimes when you apply for jobs and you, at companies ask you, like, right now or in the future, are gonna need, like, some type of immigration assistance? And, you say yes, sometimes your your, application doesn't continue. So I think that's that's kind of like a barrier for international students. When you hit the bottom and said that you are gonna need some type of immigration assistant, it's like disqualifying you from the job. And I think that is not fair, I would say, because OPT is not like an immigration sponsorship. Like, this program doesn't cost companies to to, offer jobs to recent graduates from STEAM programs. So you have, like, up to 12 months of, work authorization plus an additional, extension of 24 months if you graduate from STEM programs. So I think you have, like, enough time to work with your companies, and you need to demonstrate that you are a good fit for your company. And eventually, you are gonna have the opportunity to upgrade to an h one b visa. I think that is a little bit of lacking of information from companies. So those companies can create some type of policies that can support the national students who graduate from STEAM program.

James Pittman: Alright. Well, we're gonna look at your model. So you have

Angel Contreras Cruz: a you have developed a hierarchical decision model for evaluating the effectiveness of immigration policies. So can you can you show us and walk us through the model that you developed? Oh, absolutely. The hierarchical decision model, it's a multi criteria decision making methodology. So these type of methods are helpful to evaluate complex problems. And, of course, immigration policies, it's a very complex, topic. Right? It's a perfect example to use this methodology. So what the HTM model offer is that can provide, like, a different set of alternatives or several decision making scenarios for, stakeholders or for decision makers. So the model relies on experts in order to obtain their judgment.

Angel Contreras Cruz: And according to their judgment, you are gonna create, like, a different set of alternatives. The model compare pairs of elements to determine which element is more important to the model's objective. Because there are too many iterations in the model, The model needs to be, divided into different panels according to the area of expertise of each participant. This is kind of like the the overall methodology that I needed to follow in order to came up with this model. So I created this this model first by reading several journal articles, book chapters, technical reports about immigration policies in the US in order to identify the main objective and also the different set of criteria needed in order to evaluate immigration policies. So the model has 4 different levels. Level 1 is the mission, which is basically the evaluation of the legal, alternatives for immigration policies. After that, we have, the second level that are called criteria or factors, which is basically the quote that is gonna have, like, a set of difference of criteria or topics related to that criteria following hierarchical structure. You extracted the criteria from the literature. So the criteria are things that you came up with based on your reading of the literature and what factors are most important. Yes. So I did that for criteria and subcriteria. So I identify all these criteria and subcriteria from literature review. And after that, at the bottom of the model, we have the alternatives to be evaluated. Basically, the legal options that technology professionals have in order to come, to work study in the United States. Now this model was, first validated by the expert that participated in my study, and then they helped me, to quantify this this, this model using a technique called pairwise comparison. So I reorganized the model from higher to lower values. So, the people that see the model can, identify what are the top alternatives. So those numbers in blue are the top alternatives after the quantification phase. So in this case, the model suggests that regulatory landscape aspects and social as aspect are top priorities, but also identify some sub criteria, which we also call them, like, policy tools. So these policy tools are ideas on how to, guide the evaluation or upgrade of immigration policies in the US. And, also, at the bottom, the alternative suggest that the government or policy makers should focus on strategies on how to improve or boost the legal alternative identified as top, such as, in this case, permanent resident card and h one b visa. So after that, I organize the different set of sub criteria according to the contribution to the model and try to link what what is the policy tool intention. So in this case, I organize all the sub criteria in 4 categories, retention, settlement, attraction, and selection. So that's that's how, I organize the different set of sub criteria also, using the suggestions from other from other studies. And let me just interject a question here. Now how is this model that you've developed, how is this really filling a gap or addressing things which have not been addressed so far in studies on immigration policy? Well, according to my findings or to the rest of my knowledge, there is not any similar study in evaluating US immigration policies. So that's why, this is one of the gaps that we try to to bridge or to fill. Like, we are proposing this type of methodologies to evaluate immigration policies because there is any similar study in evaluating US simulation policies. And I think this is one of the main contributions of this research. There are several studies that evaluate immigration policies, but using different approaches. And the they're focused more on the economic aspect of the contribution of, technology professionals. But not they are not these type of models. So I think this is the novelty of my study. But besides the economic impact on immigration, what are the other main considerations that you think have to be, you know, taken into account? Well, I think the the most important aspect beside, economic is the social aspect. For example, we we saw in the in the previous slide that, the social criteria was ranked as the second alternative. So I think this is very, very important because once technology professionals immigrate to the United States, in order to flourish, let's say, they need, like, a lot of support. I mean, we're immigrants.

Angel Contreras Cruz: We are humans. And in order to do better, you also need, like, integration in the in the new culture, in the new country. Many of them or many many of us, we have families. So you have you have to have your family here, you have kids, you have your your spouse, your wife. I think having all this type of all this type of support can increase the likelihood of, first, like, a rapid adaptation from technology professionals, but also, the probabilities that their contributions are gonna impact positively the the US economy. Because, I mean, this is one of the principles of US immigration, like bring bring in talent that can contribute to the economy. So I think that's one of the important findings of this this this study.

James Pittman: Well, we're talking about we we are talking about attraction and retention of tech professionals, and and what policy

Angel Contreras Cruz: instruments, do you think have the highest effect, on attraction and retention? So I I think that having, like, more inclusive and retention strategies should be one of the top priorities for policy makers. I think that this is one of the findings of my study. Like developing policies that promote public support. I mean, from, the native population towards immigration, such as providing, access to legal services, immigration support. Because many people or many immigrants that come to the US, they don't know, like, what is their road map in order to secure, like, a permanent resident card or permanent residency, which is gonna give you, like, a peace of mind because in the immigration process, there is a lot of uncertainty. For example, when you need to upgrade or when you need to renew basically the legal visa that you have. So I think this is one of the most important aspects to consider. And also during this process, during my research process, I learned about the work that some, nonprofits are doing in order them to promote inclusivity for immigrants, such as Open Avenues, Welcome in America, and Global Detroit. So I think these nonprofits are doing a very good job in order to to promote attraction and retention strategies for immigrants in the local communities.

James Pittman: How are you planning on publicizing your findings and getting them to policymakers? What would be the next, step? The next step for me is to participate

Angel Contreras Cruz: in this type of events or, like, forums, like podcast. I think that's one of the it's it's an amazing tool. I also wanna have, like, my work published in the media. I mean, I need to start talking to people that works in, like, in newspapers or radio or TV. And I also want to start participating in, conferences about immigration policies.

Angel Contreras Cruz: I think this is one of the things that I need to start doing in order to disseminate my work, where the findings of my research can get to the right people. I mean, it's it's very challenging, but it's something that, I mean, I I need to do because this topic is one of my passions in life. So I think those are the immediate strategy strategies for me to do.

James Pittman: Absolutely. I well, I mean and that's one of the that's really the reason why I wanted to have you on today is I really think it's so important to give a platform to scholars and particular up and coming scholars who have fresh insights and new thinking on this topic because, you know, immigration commands a lot of public attention in the media and in our politics and in our culture, but it's a very broad field with many, many different aspects of it. And, you know, the US, like I said, and it has best technology companies. We really need the best people, so we should be doing our policy making based on data. We want data driven policy making. We don't want policy being driven by emotion, by pure, you know, just naked politics. We we need to have data driven research. So that's that's why I think it's so important to get work like this out into the public sphere. Now what let's talk about this as a multi criterion decision making model. And, you know, what's what is the advantage of, you know, using that type of a model just as a general in in general?

Angel Contreras Cruz: Oh, yes. Well, this is one of the things that you mentioned that you driven decisions. And I I think this type of methodologies can offer that because the experts provide their judgment and by using, like, some math, you can create, like, numerical values so you can rank the alternatives. So that's one of the important things of using this type of, methodologies. But also, this methodology, aims for agreement. I mean, if you talk about, immigration policies, there's gonna be a lot of disagreement between, like, let's say, political party a versus political party b. So disagreement needs something that is its net nature. Like, right, we can disagree about the things that we like to eat, about the things that we like to to breathe or we like to do. So when you talk about, like, evaluating immigration policies, there's there is gonna be disagreement, of course. But this methodology, looks to reduce that type of disagreement, and it's gonna provide different several scenarios where policy makers can analyze not just a single route, but explore different alternatives. So that's the thing about this type of methodologies that provide, like, several solutions and not just only one type of solution.

James Pittman: And, Angel, how did you, arrive at this kind of a topic for your research, and and what really motivates you as a scholar to focus on immigration policy? Well, as I mentioned, the idea

Angel Contreras Cruz: began after, working on a research paper in Australia. So we analyze engineers that move to, Australia in order to look for for job or study. Australia has a point based immigration system, which is, I mean, some people say these type of systems are more friendly. Let's talk about that. Let's explain what's the difference between a points based system like they have in Australia and other places versus the way that it's done in the United States.

Angel Contreras Cruz: Yes. Well, the the immigration, system in the US, when you talk about employment, it's it's called, like, employment driven. So in order to come here, you need to have, like, an work offer from a company in order to sponsor, the candidate. But the companies needs to demonstrate that there is a specific labor shortage. So that's the thing. And when we talk about, point based immigration systems, the government evaluate potential candidates and they give, specific points for the candidates based on their age, their knowledge about the language, professional experience, and educational background among other things. So the most the more points the candidate, have, the higher the likelihood is that they are gonna be granted, like, work authorization or, any specific type of visa.

James Pittman: How do you envision your this type of research impacting discussions and decisions, around US immigration policy? I mean, what would be, you know, your advice to policymakers who might say, well, how should I use this type of model?

Angel Contreras Cruz: Oh, yes. Absolutely. Well, this in order to get to the right people, I mean, the research needs more, dissemination. So my next steps are to publish at least one research article from my, dissertation. And also being able to write some, short articles in academic forums and national forums. So that's one of the things. This approach needs to be known by people working in in immigration policies. Right? Have you identified particular members of congress? I've been thinking of Zoe Lofgren or other people out in, you know, Silicon Valley, who might be interested specifically in this research. I have contact several offices like federal agencies and also some, health representatives. So I invite them to participate in my study. And this is one of the limitations that I didn't include, the perspective from people working in the government because all of them declined to participate in my study. But I mean, I I tried to contact and, I mean, I hope that one day, this this work can be discovered by someone working in US immigration policies, and they can ask, like, okay, how these type of methodologies are useful for for, policy makers. So after that, I think we we can I mean, not precisely I I am I'm gonna teach them, but, I mean, they can do the research and, they can learn about this type of, methodologies that are, in my opinion, are helpful to guide policy makers to develop new strategies, when we talk about innovation policies?

James Pittman: Well, president Biden back on November 3rd came out with an executive order, around artificial intelligence and immigration. And he's included provisions to streamline the immigration process for individuals who are working on AI in the AI industry. Have you, had a chance to review those proposals? And I

Angel Contreras Cruz: was interested to get your opinion on them. Oh, yes. Well, this is one of the things. When I was doing my research, I I learned about these proposals, and I think that there is a need to upgrade the profiles for, the technological professionals that this country needs. Like, I mean, in the last probably 20 years or so, the companies need, or needed, like, software engineers, like, computer engineers, these type of jobs. And these type of occupations were always the top, like, when you analyze data from h one b visas, something like that. But now I think the with the rapid evolution of technology, new, professions are gonna be needed. Like, such as artificial intelligence, cybersecurity experts. I mean, in order to continue increasing the, the knowledge and the competitiveness that this country needs. In order to achieve all of this, I mean, the US relies on immigration.

James Pittman: Absolutely. So let's just get your your short list. I mean, how do you on your short list, if you could summarize,

Angel Contreras Cruz: how do you think immigration policies in the United States need to be improved to better support the needs of technology professionals and the broader economy? My first recommendation, and it's not based on my findings, It's the type of words that I use when policy makers refers to immigrants. I mean, when you read the all the guidelines, there is always this word that, referred to email and such intelligence. I think we are humans, and I think that would be, like a good, starting point to start replacing some of the words, for, for immigrants. But after that, I think my, main recommendation is that immigration policies need to be more flexible. I mean, there there are a lot of barriers that immigrants face when they come to the United States. I mean, you need to learn a new culture. You need to learn a new language or improve your, the level of English that you have in order to work here. But for example, when you want to consider changing a job, the the there there are a lot of barriers. Like, you need to go to this process again of sponsorship if you want to switch from one employer to another. For example, I've been here in the US for almost 9 years, always on the, an f one b student visa. But that it doesn't matter if by the time when I graduate, I don't have, like, a job offer. I'm gonna have, like, 60 days to to leave this country if I no. If I am not able to get, like, a job, like, a full time job. So there is a and this is gonna be something I mean I mean, bad for me personally, but I think also for for the for the community and for for the government because I mean, studying a PhD involves a lot of involvement from the government, from universities. I think I was granted almost $70,000 in scholarship, fellowships, graduate assistantship. And if I'm not able to work here and contribute to the economy of the US, there is not gonna be never, like, a return on on investment of all that money that the government and universities put towards my education.

James Pittman: Well, have you thought about the implications of your research for the the companies themselves? What should they be doing differently, if anything, according to your view? I think that they can

Angel Contreras Cruz: work closely with universities. As I said before, sometimes when you apply for jobs as a recent graduate and you ask your, potential employer if they are gonna provide you some type of, immigration sponsorship, I think that for recent graduates using OPT or esteemed OPT, I mean, you don't need sponsorship, basically. You just need to work closely, I think, with universities and develop some strategies in order to give opportunities to all the graduates from, US universities, which according to some data, they are close to 1,000,000 of international students in the United States. I mean, not giving them the opportunity to contribute to the economy, it's gonna be such a big loss. Not just for the economy general, but also once they relocate to another country, they are gonna take all that knowledge back with them. And I think that's gonna be, like, a big loss for for the US. Well, how can, stakeholders in the tech industry leverage your research findings? Are your findings currently publicly available, or how how can they find out about your findings? Okay. Well, I'm in the process of finishing my dissertation. I need to make some edits, and it's gonna be, published soon. I hope I hope that. And it's gonna be like a public dissertation so everyone can access and read my my study, the findings. And if they are interested in talking to me, I'm open to discuss the findings, the ideas, or have, like, a good conversation about immigration policies. So, you can contact me via LinkedIn or via email. So, yeah, I'm open. I'm I'm gonna be very happy to talk to anybody that wants to have, like, a good conversation about the immigration policies.

James Pittman: Have you found that there are misconceptions or misunderstandings with regard to immigration policy toward tech professionals? And does your research deal at all with combating public misperception of tech immigrants?

Angel Contreras Cruz: Yes. Well, one of the things that we found more more interesting is that the social subcriteria, like creating more inclusive policies and also more welcoming communities. I think they are gonna be very helpful for for the government, for the communities itself. Because immigrants needs to adapt to a new country, to a new, community. But once they adapt, I think that they can rapidly may start making some contributions, like publications or patents or starting new businesses. I mean, if you if you see, like, there are some local local, or some ethnicities that are growing. So when you immigrate when you immigrate to this country, you also need, like, your food. You need your, own things from your own country. Right? So I think that's the opportunity to generate, like, new type of businesses for immigrants. And by doing that, you can contribute to the economy by creating new jobs, by paying taxes. So I think this is a benefit for everyone. So I think that's a misconception from from immigration that immigration, it's it's bad for the country, but I think immigration is good. Because, I mean, historically, this country, it's built from immigrants. And to the best of my knowledge, it continue, relying on immigration in order to continue, being a leader in in economy and also in the production of knowledge.

James Pittman: Now when you were doing your research, I mean, one of the one of the policy underpinnings, let's say, for example, in the perm labor certification process, which is one of the main ways of getting a permanent residency, a green card through employment. Oftentimes, you need a perm labor certification. So there, a policy imperative is to protect, US workers from displacement. I mean, did did your research address whether that consideration is is that being treated appropriately

Angel Contreras Cruz: in our current policy making, you know, framework? I mean, do you do you think that US, the way that the US immigration policies actually affect immigration is actually doing that? And is that a topic that you have addressed? I didn't address that specific, question. I included the option of permanent resident card, but for, the e b one and e b two categories, mostly for, self petitions.

Angel Contreras Cruz: So when you do your, self petition, you don't need to go to the to the PIRM process. So I didn't include that, and it's one of the limitations of the study as well.

James Pittman: What were some of the main challenges you encountered during your research process?

Angel Contreras Cruz: I mean, you mentioned the fact that you solicited input from government officials, but you couldn't get any. Where what were some of the other challenges? Well, I think the first challenge for me was English. I'm from Mexico, and English is my my second language. So I think it took me up to 3 years to improve my, English level and being able to fully understood the methodology that I use. I remember that when I started my, my PhD program and I saw all these numbers and this type of models, I didn't have an idea of what that basically mean. So I think that was my first challenge. And, I mean, I overcome that challenge by doing a lot of reading and talking with experts and friends. So I I fully understood the the methodology. But talking in particular about the research, the main the main, barrier that I have is to create the panel of experts. So this methodology relies on experts to get their judgment, which basically are gonna be turn it into numerical values. So I sent almost, 500, 600, emails or invitations to experts using, different techniques in order to identify this type of experts. And, well, luckily, 60 experts actively participated in my study. I because I didn't have, like, funding in order to pay for the time. All the experts participated, in a boardroom tell me basis. So, I mean, this was something great because I mean, for example, I had some experts that they work in in the field of, immigration law. They I mean, they are lawyers. Right? So on average, a lawyer can charge you, like, a $200 or for an hour, like, a consultation. And the time commitment for some of the experts were, like, 1 hour. But some experts really get involved into the into the research process, and some of them, I think they participated up to 3 hours of their time. So I think that that was something very valuable for my research, and I couldn't make this this research without the support from many, many experts that are working in somehow, in US immigration policies.

James Pittman: I mean, do you plan to, do any comparative study? I mean, you mentioned that this you got the idea, from working, on, a study or reviewing a study that was done in Australia. I mean, do you think that are there any countries let's put

Angel Contreras Cruz: it this way. Are there any countries where you think they're doing an excellent job of tailoring their immigration policies to facilitate maximum, maximum quality immigration of tech professionals? Are which countries are doing it better than we're doing it that you can say? Have you looked at that? Yes. I I did a comparison, between or among the some developed developed countries that uses some type of, immigration policy, to attract talent. And I think this is this finding is similar to my study to the other findings of the study in Australia is that immigration policies are missing the social context. Like, for example, when, engineers arrive in Australia, they have, like, access to permanent residency, but they don't have or they lack the opportunity to work in their areas of, expertise. So they start to work doing some type of, soft skill skills driver. Yeah, drivers. Like, for example, they start to work as, taxi drivers or working in in restaurant in restaurants or, in some type of, services jobs. And they are not fully using all their skills. This is affecting the economy because the government target to bring engineers or to bring scientists or teachers. But what is the why why is it why is important to bring all these people if they are not gonna work in what they they they are experts. So I think that immigration policies are losing the social context. So the people have the real opportunity to work in what they are experts. So I think if they have that opportunity, they can contribute better to, local economies.

James Pittman: Alright. Well, it's you know, this has been a a very interesting discussion, and I hope it's, the first of many discussions I'm I wanna have around immigration policy. Certainly, you know, as I said, I'm a firm believer that we need as much data driven, you know, analysis as possible. Anja, I I thank you so much for for joining me to discuss, your hierarchical decision making for evaluating US immigration policy toward tech professionals. Once again for the audience, it's doctor Angel Contreras Cruz, newly minted PhD from Portland State University, with a, hierarchical decision model relating to immigration policy. And, we look forward to continuing the discussion, on immigration policy and how how we can attract really the smartest people and the best people to to work for our outstanding tech companies that we have here in the United States? And what are we what are we doing well? What are we doing not so well? What can we learn from other countries? These are these are critical critical issues, if we wanna stay as, the the undisputed leader in the tech area. So, doctor Contreras Cruz, thanks so much for joining us here on Immigration Uncovered.

Angel Contreras Cruz: Thank you so much, James, for inviting me. It was a pleasure talking to you about this topic, and I hope that, people enjoy the the conversation. And please, connect with me on LinkedIn if you wanna talk about this topic. I'm very happy to do that.

‍