James Pittman: Welcome to Immigration Uncover, the docket wise video podcast. I'm James Pittman. This is episode 35, and it is the first of a 3 part series on becoming a great immigration lawyer. What does greatness mean as an immigration lawyer? And today's theme is living up to your clients' trust, greatness through earning and living up to your clients' trust.

James Pittman: And my guest today is attorney Cui Yee. She is the owner of Yee Immigration based in New York, and she is a top rated immigration lawyer. She's rated as a super lawyer. She has an AHPO rating of 10. Welcome, Shway, to the program.

Tsui Yee: Thank you, James. Thanks for, having me. I'm very excited to talk with you for the next hour.

James Pittman: Wonderful. Well, I I wanna talk about, you know, the what trust and legal practice means. So let's let's get your thoughts. And I've you know, I've invited you because you really stand out, and I've been following you for a long time on social media. You're very active in social media immigration lawyer groups.

James Pittman: As somebody who has really an exceptional and outstanding level of dedication to protecting and advancing your clients' interests and gaining them the immigration benefits that they're seeking. So I'm sure that in achieving the level of success in immigration law that you've achieved, that gaining the client's trust is a key aspect of that. So let me have you tell us what you mean by trust in the context of an attorney client relationship. Sure. Well, I mean, trust is fundamental to any relationship, especially the attorney client relationship. You know, I

Tsui Yee: think it's, you know, it it it's a two way street. Right? So the client needs to have trust in the attorney, and, also, the attorney needs to trust in the client as well. There's so much at stake, for one thing. You know, a lot of my immigration clients are facing, you know, extremely stressful stressful situations. Many of them are finding deportation. So, you know, I take my role as the attorney really seriously. You know, when when a client decides to hire you, that means that they're placing a huge tremendous amount of trust in you, and, you know, it's not something I take lightly. So I try to always, make sure that my clients trusted me by being as open and honest as possible when it comes to everything, about their case, you know, from my thoughts on what the strategy of their case is, to my recommendations, my advice as to what kind of immigration benefits they might be eligible for, to the timeline of everything, when should everything happen. I try to be as realistic as possible, you know, and, you know, also to kind of air on the side of caution and being conservative about, you know, expectations. You know? What are the reasonable chances of being successful? How long could this take? I'd rather kind of, underpromise and overdeliver. You know, I don't wanna really get anyone anyone's hopes up high unrealistically because that that just adds an extra layer of stress and anxiety, not just for the client, but the attorney too. Right? So, you know, for for my clients, I try to be as upfront as possible. You know, I share, my honest thoughts about every aspect of the case. You know, if I think a client does not have a strong chance at at getting an application approved, I'll tell them that, and they'll say, you might wanna think about applying because the consequences, you know, if there's a x percentage that your case might be denied, then you have to think about, well, what are the repercussions that can flow from that? You know, sometimes it's not just, oh, will immigration approve my citizenship application? What if they were to deny the naturalization? Are they then open to being placed into deportation proceedings? So sometimes the best action is not to take any action. And that's something that some clients may not be happy to hear, But I would, you know, prefer to be able to go to sleep at night knowing that I told my client what my actual, you know, honest professional opinion is.

James Pittman: It's some very important points you're making. I mean, I I it was one of the first things that I learned when I got out of law school was that there are no guarantees. Right? There are no guarantees. Clients often want guarantees. There simply aren't any guarantees in law. And also very much like in the doctor patient setting. I mean, you really you you should have even though it's not one of the model rules, it's still a sort of should be one of your fundamental underlying principles is at first do no arm. Right? The hypocrisy. Absolutely. So it is with immigration, especially since the person's administrative record follows them throughout their entire life, it is sometimes better not to do anything rather than do something which has a very small chance of success and potentially huge adverse consequences, you know, which they can then then follow them or cause other repercussions down the line. Somebody has a very, very weak asylum claim, and they're out of status. Sometimes it's better not to, you know, file the I 589 and start that entire, you know, process.

Tsui Yee: Absolutely. Yes. Because it's not always a good idea to be on the government's radar. You know, if if someone is considered high priority for ICE purposes, then do you really want the government to know where you live, what your phone number is, you know, who your family members are? Because whatever information you provide on these forms, I mean, you're providing biographic details, you know, chill names of children, names of spouses. It's you're you're putting it out there. And, you know, once you file something with immigration, it's there. It's gonna follow you for the rest of your life.

James Pittman: Exactly. Well, there's a lot of elements to building trust with clients, and some of these are transparent communication, protecting the client's confidentiality and privacy, and and also being reliable and being accountable to the client. So let's take these these items 1 by 1. Let's talk about transparent communication and how important is clear, honest, and consistent communication, And let's talk about a few examples of how transparent communication can kind of alleviate the client's anxiety.

Tsui Yee: Well, so that is one of the challenges, that we as lawyers face. Right? We have clients. They're understandably very concerned about their case. You know?

Tsui Yee: And a lot of the communications that I get from clients are they want a a status update. My case hasn't been filed yet. Has immigration taken a look at it? When can I expect to receive a decision? And it's a lot to manage. I'm not gonna lie. You know, I'm a solo practitioner. I don't really have a lot of staff. So when clients communicate with me, I don't really have a buffer. I'm the person who's responding to the emails and the calls and the texts. Sometimes it can be a bit too much, but you have to come up with a system, whatever it is, to let the client know, like, these are my preferred, methods of communication. Sometimes it's easier to streamline. You know? If you're feeling, and I was at this at some point myself. You know? I had given my cell phone number out to some clients. And before I knew it, they were sharing it with friends and relatives, and then I realized, okay. That's not a great idea. But I had clients reaching out to me on my landline, on my cell, through text, WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, LinkedIn, email, and, you know, it's too much. It's too much for most attorneys to deal with. So there's a few things you could do. 1 is, you know, to just kind of communicate what your boundaries are. Figure out what your boundaries are. You know? Let clients know if you call me at 8 AM, I'm not gonna be in the office. Right? You can call me from this hour to this hour, Monday through Friday. If it's an emergency, of course, then, you know, we can make exceptions. But just to let clients know, don't expect that if you text me at 3 in the morning, then I'm gonna get back to you right away. Another, idea is to just share updates with clients before they even reach out to you. This is something that I'm looking into doing, as opposed to responding to clients, after they've reached out to ask about their case, just kind of like being ahead of that and just saying, hey. This is just to let you know. There's nothing you need to do now, nothing you need to be concerned about. Your case is still pending with immigration. Here's their latest, processing time on your type of case. We don't expect to hear anything for another 6 months, but we are on top of things. And I think that will help to cut down a lot of the worry, you know, and anxiety on the part of the clients.

James Pittman: Absolutely. These are really 2 really important points. I mean, setting the boundaries and, you know, communicating with the client what's the appropriate way to contact the office. I mean, you cannot first of all, if you have clients texting you on your personal cell, calling the office, calling, you know, calling you on WhatsApp, try first of all, it's overwhelming. Secondly, it's it's disorganized, and you cannot actually be sure that you are responding to people and also keep records of your responses to them if you have a totally disorganized system like that. So you you need to really straightforward communicate that right at the outset, how how to contact and at what hours, and that actually one of the things that, some people do, some firms do is put that in your welcome packet. If you have a welcome packet that you give to new clients, like, that should really be in there or, you know, perhaps somewhere in the, terms of engagement with the firm. And then another thing, is the, yeah, like you said, regularly updating the client. I mean, you know, well, we're in the we're in the digital and largely and more and more paperless age. But, you know, years ago, you know, people used to joke that clients think lawyers sell stationery because they'll ask for this type of letter or that type of document or whatever. And, you know, paper them to paper them to death. You know? Is more is better than less. But the same thing holds true now in the digital age. I mean, regularly updating clients, and you can set you know, if you're using various technology tools, various practice management tools, various email systems or CRM systems, You can set this up to automatically send out updates, you know, maybe every month or however often at some regular intervals with the client whether or not there is movement on their case. So if they get a monthly email or monthly text from you saying, you know, we don't have any new updates on your case. We are actively monitoring your case. We will, you know, contact you again. We will update you again next month or whatever. That can often stave off them having to reach out and feel like they need the update because they're they're getting the update, and we're getting enough of it where it's it's satisfying.

Tsui Yee: I've also share with my client, you know, very simple to follow instructions on how they can look up the case status themselves. Now so just kind of giving clients a sense of agency that they don't have to rely on their attorney for any little bit of news about their case. You know? So, I think over time, it it requires some training as well because not all clients are necessarily tech savvy or will want to look up the case on their own. But, I found that by kind of, like, gently reminding clients, hey.

Tsui Yee: This this information is public. You can find this on immigration's website. And I just kinda break down and show them, hey. This is how you can look up your case. Look at your receipt notice. Your receipt number is right there. All you need to do is enter it into the USCIS case status online, and they'll tell you what the latest is. If it's pending, it'll say it's pending.

James Pittman: One of the ways of doing that is at the outset of the representation, once you've agreed to to take the case, you can actually have your paralegal or one one of your staff have a little orientation with the client and show them that, you know, if you and if you're using practice management technology, like, for example, Docketwise, you can have your staff show them how to log on to the client portal, how to go to USCIS and change their address and and and so forth. So that can be part of the orientation and the and and sort of the new client, sort of welcome as well.

Tsui Yee: Mhmm. Absolutely. Yes. I'm also I'm also thinking of putting together a few short videos to clients to actually show them like, okay. This is where you go. Here's the website. Click on that. Just so I think some clients would appreciate seeing the visual of how you would actually do it.

James Pittman: Alright. So let's talk about confidentiality and privacy. This is super important in every aspect of legal practice, but there are legal and ethical obligations, obviously, for maintaining client confidentiality. Lawyers are obligated to maintain, the client's secrets and maintain all information about the client prudently. So tell me how important and and what role those obligations play in your practice, how you go about maintaining client confidentiality, and what do you think about the idea that demonstrating respect for privacy is part of building trust with the client? And can you give me any real life scenarios where where protecting client confidentiality becomes a paramount concern?

Tsui Yee: I was just going to say that, you know, privacy and confidentiality, respecting those go hand in hand with, maintaining trust in the attorney client relationship. Especially in an area like immigration law, there are going to be cases where there is a dual representation issue. Right? Petitioner and beneficiary, both in the family and the employment context. And there are some times where representation in a case can be a little tricky. What if you're hired by a couple to pursue a marriage based green card application and then the marriage, does not work out? You know, what happens if one spouse is being abusive to the other, in which case the the marriage, adjustment, all of a sudden can't proceed. And one spouse, the one who is the, you know, the victim of abuse tells you, you know, my spouse is abusing me. Do I have any alternatives, such as a a battered spouse petition? This is a scenario that comes up more often than, you know unfortunately, comes up fairly often. So what do you do as the attorney? But, you know, if you are representing 2 parties, you're kind of bound by the rules of ethics. You can't really advise one party to the detriment of the other. So even if the the spouse who is being you know, the victim of, domestic violence comes to you, you know, from an ethical standpoint, you can't really continue to advise that spouse, right, as nonintuitive as that seems. You really need you're conflicted out, and you need to refer, both spouses out, because not you're in a you're kind of caught in between the 2 in this case. You know, similar situations come up in the employment context Yeah. Where I've been approached by both the employer as well as the employee about something confidential that they did not want me to share with the other, you know, party, from the employee side. I've had some employees say, oh, by the way, there was this minor criminal issue. Please don't tell my employer, but will this affect my visa application? You can't really advise in that situation. You have to, you know, advise that they seek outside counsel, nor can you really divulge this to the employer because if you do that, it would be to the detriment of the employee. So it's very tricky. You have to be very careful about preserving your client's confidential information, but also kind of making sure that it whenever there's a dual representation, that all parties are aware of all communications, meaning there shouldn't be any kind of communications on the side between just the attorney and 1, you know, 1, either the spouse or the employer, for example, petitioner versus beneficiary. That's that's a landmine, which I try to you know, as soon as I see, as soon as any situations come up where, you know, the the interest of the parties diverge or maybe in conflict, then I immediately advise both parties, look. There's an issue that has come up. I can't really further advise, and I recommend that you seek, counsel independently. Yeah. Absolutely.

James Pittman: I mean, rules, the rules the ethical rules regarding conflicts of interest, which is are are separate ethical rules. But confidentiality is is is is also shaded into that at every turn. But what about, processes in your office or rules regarding how you run your firm that you have put into place to protect clients' confidentiality and privacy?

Tsui Yee: Well, if I have any employees and staff, then I, you know, have them sign agreements not to reveal any information, regarding the clients that we represent, the type of cases. I'm also very careful. I do kind of post about my work, but I, am very careful about not revealing any information that could lead to any kind of breach of confidentiality on on, you know, the part of my clients.

James Pittman: If you're discussing, like, if you're discussing a case with colleagues or something and you're discussing the general fact pattern of the case, where do you think the the line is?

Tsui Yee: I think you would just it's it's you have to kind of it this this comes with experience. Right? Because, you know, what I'm thinking about immediately is the fact that there are a lot of online, lawyer groups, especially, for example, on Facebook. There's I belong to a few that are immigration lawyer groups where, members will post questions all the time, you know, throw out a a fact pattern and ask what would you do in the situation. And, you know, I've definitely seen some instances where the poster shared too much information. I mean, like, my general rule is if I'm asking colleagues for their input, I try to provide as little information as possible. You know? Because you you just never know, if let's say you reveal one detail about your client, whether it's, you know, geographical location. It's not beyond, the realm of possibility that's that someone could figure out or guess that, oh, is this the person or the company that they could be talking about? So just, you know, as a general rule, the the less information you share, the better because, you know, the Internet is out there. Once it's out, once you've posted something, it's really hard to to, like, retract that.

James Pittman: Yeah. I mean, it it's better to talk in somewhat vaguely and in generalities. I mean, rather than say, you know, you know, an El Salvadoran, a middle aged El Salvadoran female who, you know, lives in this neighborhood. I mean, that's too much information right

Tsui Yee: there. Exactly.

James Pittman: Alright. Let's talk about being reliable and being accountable to the client. So we've already talked about sort of boundaries with the client communication, but it but as far as being responsive to clients, meeting the deadlines, keeping promises, about that. How do you how do you go about making sure that you're doing those things?

Tsui Yee: Really need to say what you mean and do what you say. I mean, clients are relying on you. If you tell them that you are going to meet a deadline, then you really have to deliver. You know? Of course, there's always, you know, life gets in the way. Sometimes there are unanticipated, things that pop up. You know, for example, you know, death in the family or something like that. But I would never tell a client that I would deliver on something if I didn't think I could do it. You know? If I think that I cannot meet a proposed timeline, I'll share that with my client, explain to them something has come up or, you know, client of mine got detained or or what have you. For the most part, I find that as soon as you notify clients and speak to them, communication is key. As soon as you notify a client to let them know, look. Something has come up. I'm going to have to readjust, but I will try to work on this and, meet the deadline as soon as I can. For the most part, clients are reasonable. Right? They understand that that things happen beyond your control, but it's it's truly important. You know? Everything when the more I think about it goes back to this whole issue of trust. If you tell a client or anybody for that matter, you know, that you're gonna do x and then you're flaky, you don't do it, you don't show up when you say you do, you know, then then that kind of chips away at the trust. You know, this this goes to everything from being timely, keeping your appointments. You know, I used to work at several firms where clients would have, scheduled appointments with, you know, attorneys at the firm. And because some offices are very high volume, it was a difficult thing to have clients just kind of wait waiting in the waiting area for an hour or 2 hours. And so when I started my first law practice, that was just something that I, you know, promised to myself I would never do to my clients. If they, you know, cleared their calendar and made it a point to get to my office on time and they booked a way to see me at 3 PM, I will see them at 3 PM. You know? To me, that's very important. You know? It's being respectful of other people's times. You know? So, yeah, that's very important to me, keeping to my word. Mhmm.

James Pittman: Yeah. I mean, the cattle call approach to, you know, having clients visit the office. I mean, I've never been a fan of that. I've heard of some firms say, oh, just come between 8 and 12. It's first come, first serve.

James Pittman: I mean, to me narrow. Natural. You know, ridiculous. But by the same token, it is not uncommon to have clients, come without booking an appointment or just show up. I mean, I don't know how often that happens with your practice, but it does definitely happen.

Tsui Yee: Yeah. I mean, I do know of other firms that have this kind of rolling, you know, kind of like anyone can you know, no appointment required, and that would drive me crazy, to be honest. So for the most part, I do not see a client if they have not booked a time with me. You know, every now and then, it does happen. I've heard I've had a few clients who never spoke to me, never bothered to call my office, just kinda show up and and said, oh, I just, you know, heard about you online. I mean, on a few occasions, I've kind of, you know, agreed to see them if it was something, like, urgent or there was some kind of valid reason why they couldn't book an appointment with me first. But, otherwise, you know, I just tell the client, look. You know, I'm in the middle of something. I have cases that I'm working on, and, you know, for me to drop everything and to accommodate you, I mean, unless it's justifiable, unless it's my time is justified. For the most part, I I would, you know, rather that they follow

James Pittman: Absolutely.

Tsui Yee: Procedures that I've put in place.

James Pittman: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you can't do that anywhere else. Right? You can't show up at your your dentist office and just expect

Tsui Yee: to work

James Pittman: and then be safe. And so

Tsui Yee: The thing is if you ex if you allow this to happen, then it's gonna create a pattern and a practice.

James Pittman: No. That's exact that's, again, the boundaries the boundaries have to be real in order to be effective.

Tsui Yee: Boundary oh, I'm good.

James Pittman: For the benefit not only of of you and your practice, it's for the benefit of all the clients. Yeah. So that things stay in balance. Mhmm. Matters are getting worked on appropriately. Things run-in an orderly fashion. Right. And competent representation is the rule. So that's why these procedures exist, and they they need to be followed. Alright. Let's let's shift a little bit and talk about gain the importance of showing competence or being competent and increasing your expertise and how that plays into gaining the trust of your clients. Lawyers are expected to engage in ongoing education. Right? We have CLE requirements. It's important to stay updated. Immigration law is one of those areas that changes frequently because there are a lot of executive branch decisions that have major impact. Right? And, so, you know, can you give me any examples of you know, beyond your regular CLE requirement, are there other examples where you've gone out of your way to, you know, educate yourself or develop particular expertise and how that's benefiting benefited your clients by enabling you to devise a solution, a legal solution, or solve a complex problem that, you know, you wouldn't have been able to do had you not take on the extra mile?

Tsui Yee: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think immigration is a a very unique area of law in the sense that that it's so complex that there are so many specialties even within immigration itself. You know? So there's many immigration attorneys who only focus on one aspect, you know, whether it's deportation, right, removal defense or just family based, or just humanitarian, work, or just, you know, EB 1 a, or just, you know, employment. So or EB5. Right? It's really hard to say that you can handle all kinds of immigration cases because there's just too much to digest. Right? There's the changes are constant. Right? It's not a static area of law, and it's nearly impossible just to to be expected to be on top of everything at the same time. There's not a day that goes by where there's, I'm learning something new, right, and I've been practicing for 25 years now. I'm not you know, I think you have to have a sense of humility. You know? Like, you can't ever be the expert of everything, and if you ever come to a point where you think that you are, you that that kinda means that, you know, you're maybe missing out. Yeah. So the thing is, like, the way I taught myself how to do certain cases that I had no previous experience is I would volunteer, to take on a pro bono case. That's how I started learning how to do special immigrant juvenile petitions. Because the the benefit with, taking on a pro bono case is, you know, the support you get is pretty decent. Right? You're not gonna be filing something on your own with no one reviewing it. There's gonna be, like, a supervisor within the the nonprofit organization to be looking over, you know, whatever you prepare just to make sure that everything is, you know, is sufficient for filing. So, you know, that's kind of how I learned how to do SIDG for o ones. I didn't really sign up for any kind of training, but I kinda educated myself. You know? Like, I I kind of there's there's a lot out there that you can, review yourself. So for example, mandamus. That's something that comes up a lot. I hear from a lot of colleagues, and I get a lot of requests from attorneys asking, can you, you know, co counsel or mentor me on mandamus? There's so much there are so many resources out there. Right? If you go to AIC's website, there are so many samples and practice advisories. You don't necessarily have to take a CLE on a mandamus in order to learn how to file them. They're not crazy complicated, and that's kind of how I got started filing my first mandamus is getting a hold of the practice advisory and, like, a sample complaint. But there's so many ways. I mean, there's the various Facebook groups as well, which, you know, I think they're the the value that they bring is, you get, like, some real life, examples, of cases that have worked. You know, a lot of it is anecdotal, you know, like speaking to other attorneys, you know, what have have you ever been successful in obtaining this type of benefit where the FACT pattern was this? You know? This is not something that you can always find by, you know, doing research on, you know, Ayla's website or or any of the, you know, the like, Westlaw Lexus. Right? A lot of it is, realistically speaking, you know, even though there is this benefit out there, how many people have actually tried to file this application, and how many has USCIS actually approved? So I think talking to other colleagues, you know, can be really helpful and educational, just kind of learning, like, what kind of could work or what is really risky and maybe not a good idea to pursue. Also finding mentors. You know, I think the immigration bar is extremely friendly, willing to share, and there's there's a lot of attorneys that have developed, like, kind of like a niche practice. So if I am taking on a case that I'm not very familiar with, then I would try to see if I can find a mentor or a co counsel that will work with me on that particular case.

James Pittman: Yeah. I mean, you you've touched on a lot of important points. I mean, certainly experienced practitioners know this, but, immigration law really is the the various subfields of immigration law. They're really operating in different worlds. And if you're doing, you know, a high volume perm with a lot of corporate clients, you're you're in a different world than if you're doing a lot of, you know, removal defense and asylum. Yep. You're working through different government agencies. You're dealing with a different client base from a different sector of society, and the considerations are are quite different. I mean, if you're an immigration lawyer and you're working at a university, you know, in there with their international students, that is, you know, quite different than running a, you know, solo practice where you're doing a lot of, you know, fiance visas and family based immigration. So, you know, so it's many different worlds, and it's it's really practically impossible to to try to be the the master of all of those subfields. So pick, the ones or the one or the or the few that align with your talents, with your personality, with your career goals, and, you know, and and and focus your your niche in in that fashion. Certainly, there are there's tons of excellent CLE on immigration law. I mean, first and foremost, the AALA Conference, especially the national conference, which is really where, you get up to speed. But you mentioned also taking cases pro bono. I mean, that's a that's an excellent way if you're if you're exploring a new area. Take a case pro bono. I mean, one of the ways that I got up to speed on removal defenses, you know, when I first started, I volunteered with, an organization that was run by the Texas Bar Association, and that was down on the southern border. And I took cases pro bono in the immigration courts down there. So that's, you know, that's another great way. And as you said, I mean, another important point that you raised is that the immigration bar, I've noticed, is a particularly open community. So you've raised a lot of important points there. And certainly, if you're in a state that has a particular particular, you know, certification or specialization in immigration law, like a few states do, certainly, you know, consider consider, applying for that. That that's also an excellent, you know, an excellent step. Let's talk about, empathy and understanding because it's really important. Get you know, your clients trust you when you're empathetic and when they have the sense that you understand them, and there's a lot of aspects to that. I mean, you have to be culturally competent as an immigration lawyer. So, Sway, how important is understanding clients' cultural backgrounds and experiences in in in your practice, and how do you think cultural sensitivity impacts trust? Can and do you have any examples where, you know, there there you you've headed off or staved off potential miscommunications or, or prevented miscommunications by your cultural awareness.

Tsui Yee: Sure. I mean, if there was ever an area of law that exposes the attorney to a very diverse, you know, clientele, it's immigration law. You know, there are clients coming from all over the world, literally. So from my practice, you know, I should really make up a list of all the countries of, you know, where my clients have come from. But, you know, that's one of the unique things about, immigration law is that you get to learn about people from other cultures, religions.

James Pittman: It's part of the satisfaction of being an immigration lawyer family.

Tsui Yee: Yeah. And I think when I first started practicing, you know, I've I've worked at a number of firms, and then each firm, they each had their own kind of like client different client base. So that's kind of how I, you know, learned about, you know, particular countries, what are, you know, like, some of the cultural norms within certain geographical unexpected. Just I think what I've learned is just be respectful and open minded. You know, there are some I've had some clients that have a tendency to be a lot more blunt, you know, in their communication style. And at first, it kind of threw me for a loop, but then just kinda realizing, oh, it's not personal. It's just that's just how it is, you know? And, like, being adaptable and adjustable to that is really important. You know? Just kind of like taking it into perspective. Right? Not everybody is gonna sound a certain way. Not everybody's gonna, you know, observe a particular religious, you know, faith. But the more open minded, the better. And the other thing I've learned is don't take anything personally. If a client is kind of maybe venting at you, know that it's probably not about you. It's probably about them being as in a state of fear and anxiety, and they just have like, they need to vent. And, unfortunately, they can't vent at immigration. Right? So, of course, although it's not fair, right, like, a lot of the time the attorneys, bear the brunt of it because, you know, unfortunately, there's a lot of dysfunction going on with the immigration agencies.

James Pittman: You you have to really be open minded, Susan. You have to be the kind of person who can negotiate these cultural gaps because they they will come up. Unless you're unless you're dealing, I think, in an entirely employment based context where you're dealing just with company HR people and that sort of thing where there's, you know, very typical, you know, business norms. But if you're dealing with the general public, you know, doing family immigration or something, you have to branch these cultural gaps. They'll show up in a lot of different ways. I mean, whether it's, you know, that is, clients try to haggle your fee. You're not expecting that. Like, you're you're expecting that you tell them what the fee is, and they're not gonna try to haggle you down. And in their background, that's, you know, they're they're used to trying to do that. And you, you know, you might feel somewhat taken aback by that, but you have to sort of negotiate that somehow. There's there's that aspect of it or, you know, it can cut the other way it can cut the other way as well. I mean, I you know, way back when I was practicing, I mean, there were clients from particular ethnic groups and there there were other immigration lawyers who were members who themselves belong to that ethnic group, and they would prefer to come and see an American. It's like you can see all kinds of things, and you have to sense what's going on and be very flexible and very savvy, and understanding to try to, you know, negotiate some of these situations.

Tsui Yee: That's funny that you say that because, yes, you know, stereotypes do exist Right. No matter where you go, I guess.

James Pittman: How about let's talk about emotional support. So, you know, in immigration law, particularly certain types of cases, let's say, you know, what stand out, asylum, U Visa, T Visa, to name a few, VAWA. You're you're sometimes dealing with people who are in extremely emotionally stressful situations and sometimes people who are actually deeply traumatized. Yep. So I think you need to also as an immigration lawyer, you're gonna be a good one. You need to recognize and address the emotional situation of your client While, you know, balancing your professional distance, you're operating as an attorney, but you are dealing with a client who who who may be traumatized, who may be in a very difficult emotional position. Give me your advice about this one.

Tsui Yee: Yeah. This is another tricky area. I mean, I would say that when I was, earlier on in my career, I was a little confused about the role of the attorney, what's the appropriate role of the attorney when you have a client who, you know, has, faced trauma in the past, and, I think some of the mistakes I made were trying to be more than that client's lawyer. So I've, like, made the mistake of trying to be the marriage counselor, right, trying to be their therapist, which is not ideal because you're not trained. Right? Like, we're not trained to diagnose clients. We're not necessarily trained to, you know, offer that type of support and counseling. So, you know, it's really important to be empathetic, right, to be compassionate to clients. But I think, yeah, you have to be careful about overstepping your role as the attorney. There have been and when I've had clients who indicated to me that they were, like, lacking in support, I've recommended that they seek counseling. And a lot of the time, the clients, you know, have, obtained counseling as a result of that. So I think to that extent, you have, you know, just kind of, like, being available to offer up whatever resources the clients can avail themselves of. But you yourself, you know, it's it's kind of, like, not, I don't feel equipped. You know?

James Pittman: No. And it's not well, I mean, you're also not situated, in a in a context. I mean, you if you're a an immigration lawyer, let's say, in private practice, and you're dealing and you you are taking, you know, VAWAs and UVs as in these case types of cases where people have undergone trauma, you know, you you must remember at all times that you are operating as an attorney representing them in a legal process. Now you are to approach being in that role with empathy and with appropriate emotional understanding, but you are not a social worker, you are not a psychiatrist or psychologist or anything like that. So, you know, that's that's really important because clients, you know, will and perhaps even unconsciously, attempt to draw you into Yeah. You know, some of their their problems. And, you know, and and you you can't you cannot do that, both from a practical standpoint, from an ethical standpoint, etcetera. Having a list of resources, whether it's, you know, domestic violence hotlines or, counselors or, if need be, shelters or any other resources like that for people who are in crisis, especially, you know, pro bono services or other services that are available for people in crisis. Having that list, is available so is a good idea so that you can point people to appropriate support when you're done. Definitely. Yeah. And another aspect of trust, which is super important, is in your fees and billing. So, you know, you will go a long way toward gaining your client's trust if you are clear and upfront about what the fees are gonna be and what the expected expenses are gonna be. So, so I talk a little bit about how you make your billing practices transparent and how you prevent misunderstandings around legal fees and expenses?

Tsui Yee: So I try to be as clear as possible in my engagement letter. I'm specific as to the scope of legal services. I also like to kind of limit my engagement letters. So, you know, let's say it's a really complicated case that requires multiple steps. And in order to proceed to the next step, let's say there's a condition attached, like the petition has to be approved before you can then go on and try, a joint motion to reopen the deportation order. So what I've been doing more and more is just kind of, like, rather than having the client hire me for the whole, let's say, enchilada. Right? I'll just, like, break it up into parts, and I'll explain to the client, look. Rather than, you know, creating this giant, like, juggernaut of a retainer agreement, we don't really know if we're gonna be able to reach steps a to j. Right? So why don't you just hire me, you know, for each step of the process? Right? Because there's you know, for a lot of immigration cases, there are so many components, and you can't necessarily proceed to the next stage unless you're successful in the previous one. I for me, I think it's easier, and I think it's also easier on the clients as well to kind of, like, engage in these stages as opposed to saying, yes. I'm hiring you to handle the whole thing, you know, and we're just gonna label it getting me my green card. Right? Because it's not that easy to obtain a green card in a lot of cases. So I find that, like, using this approach, has been has worked out really well because for me, it's easier to conceptualize, well, what what would be a fair fee for me to charge to to do steps a and b as opposed to I have steps a to j. What kind of you know, like, how do I even decide what's a fair fee for the whole thing? So for me, that works really well because, I'm able to break up the the amounts that are old and, you know, I'm able to see, okay, we're we're successful in getting the first few stages successfully completed, then I can know how far this case and how realistic is the chance of success ultimately.

James Pittman: Yeah. Absolutely. Billing in stages is super important. I mean, also, there are certain, things that you should always consider putting in your retainer agreement or otherwise communicate to the client, about various contingencies. Like, for example, appeals are always a separate matter. That should be something that you make explicit if you're undertaking a type of case where an appeal, you know, could be necessary in the event of the denial. Be sure to communicate front that the appeal is not included in the in the initial representation. You know, certainly laying out what the expected expenses are, but also putting in language that indicates that other expenses may arise, filing fees may change, other services may be necessary, whether it's additional, you know, translations or interpretation services or what have you, you know, and and put that into your, you know, fee agreement and and go through it orally with the client. It's worth going through these contingencies orally as well at the time, you know, at the meeting where you agreed to undertake representation in the case.

Tsui Yee: Yep. And, also, just kind of thinking through conceptually, like, what could happen after filing. Right? We know how USCIS loves to issue RFEs. Right? So unless you're explicit in your retainer agreement and you, you know, discuss with the client, well, what happens if an RFE is issued? Is that covered in the in the original fee, whether it's a flat fee or an hourly fee? So breaking it down to the clients, explaining to them what might happen, not to just assume that after we file a petition that immigration will just automatically approve it, letting them know that an interview could be required or a notice of intent to deny could be issued. You know, I think that also goes a long way to also ease clients' concerns and also, again, build on the trust, letting them know these are the things that could happen, and being, clear about, like, at what stage are additional fees required. You know, so I try to be as explicit as possible, you know, when when talking about clients about where the where what to expect next in their case.

James Pittman: Absolutely. Let's talk about, soliciting client feedback. This is another important, aspect. I mean, in terms of gaining the client's trust, you wanna ask the clients how their experience was with you, especially at the conclusion of the representation, and incorporate, you know, incorporate their feedback, their constructive feedback. So, you know, what methods do you use for getting feedback from your clients about what they thought about your handling of their case? And have you have you found any areas where client feedback, you know, encouraged you to improve in any way or any any success story where you've implemented any client suggestions?

Tsui Yee: I usually ask my clients at the conclusion of their case if they'd be willing to write a review for me. And if they are willing to write a review for me, if they could be you know, provide some examples of what it is that they liked about my representation, if they can be descriptive. You know? And, of course, some clients, not all clients are gonna agree to write a review for you. You know, it's human nature. You know, even though they you know, some clients, the reaction is always, yes. I'm more than happy to, but, like, they may forget or you might they might just things get busy. Right? And then they just forget. But for my client who have, agreed to write reviews for me, I always ask them to just kind of be specific about what it is that they liked, why did they choose to hire me, and, that's how I've gotten feedback. There was one client who wrote a review, and although it was positive, he did say something that kind of caught me by surprise. I think he said something like my communication style can be a bit brusque, you know, which, you know, initially, I was like, oh, okay. That's interesting that they posted that about me, but then it got me thinking like, okay. That's good to know. Maybe I should kind of be a little more cognizant of how I might come off sometimes because, you know, I'll admit it. If I'm pressed for time or maybe, like, not having a great day, maybe I do come off as sounding a little, you know, impatient or a little too brusque. So that one client review has gotten me to think about, okay. Yeah. Maybe just kind of, like, watch my tone sometimes.

James Pittman: I mean, it it's easy to survey your clients. I mean, there are a lot of tech tools, for for surveying your clients. You can, you know, design a survey and utilize, a tool for for getting their their feedback, whether it's through an email or through a text, and have them answer a few questions about how their experience was with you. You know, and then you you may wanna I mean, one of the things you can do if you're concerned that they you know, if you just invite them to post a review on Google or something and you're concerned that, you know, you have no control over it and they might say something that you don't want you know, you don't want out there, frankly. You may wanna, you know, do the survey first and then just pick the you know, kind of pick the ones that are more or less favorable. Them write the reviews. I mean, that's one, you know, one way. But definitely surveying clients. Yeah. I I mean and, again, I mean, we we, you know, we exist to to serve the clients within the within the context of of the rules of practice. So, you know, incorporating the client suggestions, I think is is important when whenever possible. But how do you how do you ensure that your your practice is is continuously improving? I mean, how are you are you doing regular sort of, let's say, audits of your practice in terms of how you're doing things in the office, I mean, how you're serving clients and identifying areas for continuous improvement? And are you do you feel that you are positioned effectively with regard to all the innovation that's going on in legal practice nowadays, let's say, AI and other innovations?

Tsui Yee: So it's interesting you bring

James Pittman: you're laughing.

Tsui Yee: Well, because I'm a solo. Right? So Right. It's really me wearing all the hats. And if you know solo practitioners, like, there's only so many hours in the day. There's only so much time that we have. But that is something I'm kind of going through right now, because I've hit kind of, like, a certain level in my career where I've been doing this for 25 years. Right? And so I'm thinking about the big picture, like, how much longer do I wanna be practicing, and do I wanna continue practicing the way I have been for the last decade 2 decades and a half? Practicing the way I have been for the last

James Pittman: decade 2 decades and a half? I'm

Tsui Yee: also of a certain age. Right? So technology is not my strong suit. So I have hired a consultant to kind of look look into my, the way I practice. You know? And so we're looking into actually, we just signed up to, use a, like, a case management, system. Right? Everything used to reside in my head, you know, and then I realized this is just not sustainable. Like, I can't keep track of everything. It's just too much. So I'm, you know, kind of signing up with a new CRM, looking into other ways that I can streamline, modernize, use tech more to my advantage. So, yeah, it's interesting you're asking this question because I'm literally in the middle of of doing this right now, just kind of, like, auditing, the way I've been, running my practice.

James Pittman: Well, there are some excellent, consultants out there, you know, who, for example, immigration finder is just one of many who who deal with specifically with immigration lawyers and help them to optimize their practices and and design and incorporate, you know, processes for achieving maximum productivity and and being sure and, you know, ensuring that you're, you know, availing yourself of all the technology, that will help you that that you can leverage in order to be as efficient as you can, you know, when you regardless of whether you're solo, whether you're a small firm, larger firm. But I think it's especially important nowadays for solos and small practices to leverage technology because that's that's your equalizer. Right? Is is can be a great equalizer is if you are leveraging technology, you can actually punch way above your weight in terms of the amount of work that you can handle and and the effectiveness and your profitability. But, so something something to think about. So we've discussed we're we're getting to the end of the hour, but we've had a great time talking about the importance of gaining your client's trust and becoming a great immigration lawyer. So, I mean, Sway, are there any other thoughts you have about what it means to be a great immigration lawyer?

Tsui Yee: You really have to have a passion for wanting to help immigration clients. Right? If the drive is not there, then, you know, why are you do why are you in this field? So that's kind of the reason why I got into it is because I come from a family of immigrants. I'm the first in my family to be born in US, to go to college, to be a professional. So, you know, I kind of saw firsthand, like, all the obstacles that immigrants go through, and that's what drives me, you know, every day. You have to kinda have that kind of passion and that fire to keep going at it. And the other thing I would note is, you know, immigration is is a grueling or maybe I shouldn't say grueling, but it is challenging. Right? It's a very challenging fulfilling area of law. And if you want to kind of, make this your calling or your career, just kind of, think of ways that you can stay resilient. Right? Because there's gonna be many times that you're, you know, kind of like it's very much a David and Goliath, you know, like, you know, dealing with immigration is not easy. Right? The government is very dysfunctional. Just think of ways how you can sustain yourself, right, and stay resilient. There there's gonna be times where you're gonna feel like this is too much. Can I especially during the previous administration? Right? But what I found

James Pittman: the next administration as well.

Tsui Yee: Well yeah. Release exactly. So just kind of, like, don't forget to care about yourself as well because you have to have the oxygen mask on first in order to help others.

James Pittman: Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. So it's great advice. You've honored me by being my guest today to talk about living up to your clients' trust. And thanks again for joining me on Immigration Uncovered, and please tune in to our next episode.

Tsui Yee: Thanks so much, James. I had a great time speaking with you.

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